Embryo splitting

[justintime]

Today we had a recip calve that was due March 1st according to when the embryo was implanted. She gave birth to a red polled bull, very lively and pretty small so I assumed she had just calved a bit premature for some reason. Then I wondered about twins but thought that would be a very long shot and she really did not appear to be carrying another. 3.5 hours after the first calf was born, I did a pen check and what do I see but another set of feet coming from this black recip. She calved the second calf shortly and it is also a red polled bull. Both calves are running around like gangbusters and the poor mama cow is having trouble keeping up to them. They appear to be absoutely identical in size, color and sex so I am thinking they are the result of the embryo splitting. This is the second time we have had this happen in the past 8 years. I never got them weighed tonight but will get weights first thing tomorrow morning.

 

[Limiman12]

Sounds to me like a take good care of the recip this summer, creep the calves and you got a two for one!

 

[titan]

another thing that could have happened was that the embryo didn't stick and she was bull bred.

 

[nlgriff]

It does happen. Last year was the first time I had ever seen it. No chance of bull bred in our case. 
The recip and herd bull were Red Angus, calves were solid black.

 

[justintime]

another thing that could have happened was that the embryo didn't stick and she was bull bred.

I keep my recips totally seperate from my breeding pastures for at least 6 weeks following implantation and I check them at least 3 times a day. There is no chance of these calves not being ET calves.

 

[nlgriff]

I wonder what the probability of it happening is?

 

[frostback]

It happened to us also. Got 2 bulls, they had different amounts of white on there heads. They were by Meyer 734 and a angus cow. You could tell they were identical.

 

[firesweepranch]

BBSF on here has had several pairs, maybe they will chime in. If I remember correctly, they sometimes had different amounts of white on the heads also, but ALWAYS the same sex.

 

[kanshow]

Has anyone ever done this on purpose and put them in something like a Holstein?

 

[bbsf]

Just to "chime in" we do a few (half dozen) recips each year and for 3 years out of 4 we had twin ET calves.  Different flushes, both dams and sires.  We keep good records of the embryos put in and the grades (1 or 2, fresh vs frozen, etc).  The twins have all been #2 embryos, frozen eggs, heifers calves, born couple weeks early.  Mostly they are identical in all markings but one set the white faces varied quite a bit.  Slash vs nice full blaze.  I know that no one is perfect, but I doubt in our case that there was more than one embryo per straw.  Most of the technicians that do ET are very meticulous and take great care in being as correct as possible.  Not saying it could not happen.  At any rate as long as the cow is capable of raising twins, it sure helps cashflow when you double up. 

 

[justintime]

I was talking with my ET center today, and  they say they hear of 5 or 6 each year where the embryo has split after implantation. They told me that there is very little chance of two embryos being put into one straw at their ET center, as every embryo is recorded as it is recovered and they always end up with the same number of embryo straws as the number that is recorded. It is something that happens from time to time in nature with natural breeding as well.

 

[kjd farms]

A friend of mine that bred and raised the million dollar Missy Holstein cow also had an embryo split with 2 heifer calves.  The first calf sold at a month of age in a sale for $24000.

 

[Limiman12]

When they do "embryo work in humans in vitro fertilization, the eggs are so stimulated from the hormones to super ovulate and then in the fertilization process they are more likely to split.....  My sister had to do it and her first pregnancy they put two in and one of the two split......  The split embryos did not make it past a couple weeks, but she was pregnant with trips for a while.  The egg that didn't split is my nephew who is now four, and he got his twin brother two years later.......

I would think that the super ovulation hormones would make bovine embryos to be more likely to split as well.

 

[stkrdge]

It happened to my wife! Lol

 

[CJB]

It happened to my wife! Lol

Mine too!

 

[leanbeef]

I talked to our embryologist this morning, and since I had him on the phone, I asked about the possibility an embryo splitting after implantation... He said it does happen occasionally, but not often. He also said he had noticed fertilized eggs under the microscope that appeared to be likely to split...he makes notes of things lime that, and has records of that happening. I think he said he knew of two or three sets in the several years he's been doing ET work.

We also talked about other possibilities for the occurrence of "twins" after ET...he knew of one situation where two calves were born, obviously NOT identical twins, so obviously not the result of an embryo that split. In this case, they tested the two calves, and ONE was an ET calf, the other a natural calf of the recip who obviously got bred during her heat, then they put an embryo in her, and both embryos survived. He also said the embryologist would have to be "highly incompetent" in order for two embryos to end up in the same straw, but he couldn't argue that it wasn't possible.

If the calves are the same sex and look very similar, they're probably identical twins. If they're opposite sex or different colors, then clearly they are the result of two separate eggs. Btw the fact that twins ARE the same sex or the same color doesn't automatically determine they are identical twins. Fraternal twins are genetically just full sibs.

I grew up with Simmental cattle, and I've seen a fair share of twins. Some look NOTHING alike...some really ARE identical, enough so that they're very difict to tell apart. I've even seen this in traditionally marked Simmental with lots of spots, but according to research, identical twins in breeds with spotting don't always have identical markings. I would expect them to be described similarly, but not necessarily absolutely identical. In our experience, we seem to have a lot more fraternal twins than we do identical, but I can think of a few cases that I could barely tell two calves apart because everything about them, even their faces, looked the same!

Didn't mean to get long-winded...I just think it's an interesting subject.

 

[firesweepranch]

I talked to our embryologist this morning, and since I had him on the phone, I asked about the possibility an embryo splitting after implantation... He said it does happen occasionally, but not often. He also said he had noticed fertilized eggs under the microscope that appeared to be likely to split...he makes notes of things lime that, and has records of that happening. I think he said he knew of two or three sets in the several years he's been doing ET work.

We also talked about other possibilities for the occurrence of "twins" after ET...he knew of one situation where two calves were born, obviously NOT identical twins, so obviously not the result of an embryo that split. In this case, they tested the two calves, and ONE was an ET calf, the other a natural calf of the recip who obviously got bred during her heat, then they put an embryo in her, and both embryos survived. He also said the embryologist would have to be "highly incompetent" in order for two embryos to end up in the same straw, but he couldn't argue that it wasn't possible.

If the calves are the same sex and look very similar, they're probably identical twins. If they're opposite sex or different colors, then clearly they are the result of two separate eggs. Btw the fact that twins ARE the same sex or the same color doesn't automatically determine they are identical twins. Fraternal twins are genetically just full sibs.

I grew up with Simmental cattle, and I've seen a fair share of twins. Some look NOTHING alike...some really ARE identical, enough so that they're very difict to tell apart. I've even seen this in traditionally marked Simmental with lots of spots, but according to research, identical twins in breeds with spotting don't always have identical markings. I would expect them to be described similarly, but not necessarily absolutely identical. In our experience, we seem to have a lot more fraternal twins than we do identical, but I can think of a few cases that I could barely tell two calves apart because everything about them, even their faces, looked the same!

Didn't mean to get long-winded...I just think it's an interesting subject.

Well put.  (clapping)
We have a set this year, NOT ET, that I am about 99% sure are identical. They are October born, and to this day there is absolutely no difference between them. We do not tag our calves, but these two boys make me think I should! We put tail chalk on one of them to tell them apart (we started halter breaking them, and like to know them apart when we are working with them). They were 58 pounds at birth, and are growing at the same rate. We have 36 head of cattle, and I can tell everyone of them apart by their head, shape, size without even looking at a tag. These two boys are the first time I have not been able to tell them apart! Just for fun, here is a pic of them. Of course, one is on the move so not easy to compare...

 

[leanbeef]

They DO look alike! We had a set of twin heifers one time back in the 80s...spotted all over...and COMPLETELY identical...they had the same face! I've never been not able to tell two animals apart, even when I was a kid, until we had them. They looked alike from the time they were babies until they were cows! Lol