Ruebush Shorthorns
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2008
- Messages
- 190
Can someone expand on the grading system of embryos and what exactly it affects if an embryo is a 1 2 or 3.
Thanks
Thanks
Embryos Grade 1, 2, 3 What does this mean for quality and conception rates
- Thread starter Ruebush Shorthorns
- Start date
Help Support Steer Planet:
Doc
Well-known member
Ruebush Shorthorns said:
I personally don't see a 'lot" of conception difference in 1 & 2's , #3's I personally wouldn't use unless I was putting them in fresh. Cowboy can probably expand a little more & a little more professionaly than what I have.
Jill
Well-known member
I agree with Doc, don't see much difference in 1 and 2, there are people that swear you'll get heifers with 2's, but we haven't noticed a difference. We were told that 3's aren't viable enough to freeze, they can only be put in fresh, we have done that when we had recips standing there and that's what we had and it stuck, but I guess the odds of that go way down. I can't answer what the technical reasons for differences are, I would guess mobility, but someone with more knowledge than I have will have to answer that.
Cowboy
Well-known member
Finally something I don't have to look up or think real hard at!! Imagine that?
Years ago when the ET industry was young and growing, it was understood early on that we needed a universal grading system - notonlyfor personal use, but for the yet to expand sales portion of the industry.
It comes to general "Morpholgy", and that means what the embryo is doing in it's shell. Here is the breakdown and the standard deformities logged when the embryos are graded, all done by visual means.
#1 -- At the 7 day flush time frame, a perfectly formed and growing embryo will have from as few as 60 to as many as 150 cells on day 7 , these are normally call "Morulae", and are tightly compacted into a group of cells that are - as a group - almost completely round in shape as a ball. A number #1 embryo will have NO dead cells, have no loose material inside the shell ( Called a Zona ) and crisp looking.
#2 -- These embryos are essentialy the same, but may have an out of round shell, may have one or more dead cells lying close to the live ones ormixed in, and will usally have a small amount of loose material inside as well, a result of the degeneration of one or more cells at an earlier age -- say when they were 2-3 days old. This will not severely affect this embryo as long as the main cell mass appears to be normal for that day of collection. These will run almost the same conception rate as a number #1, I have even seen them do better for some strange reason?? Go figure?
#3 -- These will be severely malformed usually, will have a large degree of dead material inside, and the main cell mass will be almost covered upwith dead or dying material. The shells will usually be out of round, flat sided even and will stick to the bottom of the dish like a suction cup. I use these depending on the situation. How many recips, how valuable the cow is, sometimes we only get #3's I hate to say, so we do the best we can on that day. Conception rate will usually (SUCK) for lack of beter terminology, bottomline it is not very good!
If you were to flush your donor on day 7.5 today 8 -- these #3 egg would all be dead or so bad they would not be worth even taking out of the dish. They are ad ead give away on quality grade --a day 8 embryo will be almost twice the size -- both internally and shell size as well -- as a day 7 embryo. The shell will be stretched out by the ezpansion of the blastomeres (Cells) and will look like a hollow ball --a see thru one if you will. Day 7 egg are solid and compact.
Hope this gives you all some sort of refference point. For sales of embryos, if true dilligence has been taken on the honest grading, a #1 will not be much better than a #2, both for survivability and value. It is for the most part-- a MIND game on these two embryos. One always likes to hear the word "Perfect". I might inject this one thought -- I have seen literally thousands of very good embryos -- but I am almost possitive, I have yet to see what would be considered a "PERFECT" embryo -- what ever that might be. We have set high standards for this industry --it pays big dividends most of the time, this quality grading system is just one of many things we do to make this work as well as it does. I am proud to be part of it!
Terry
Years ago when the ET industry was young and growing, it was understood early on that we needed a universal grading system - notonlyfor personal use, but for the yet to expand sales portion of the industry.
It comes to general "Morpholgy", and that means what the embryo is doing in it's shell. Here is the breakdown and the standard deformities logged when the embryos are graded, all done by visual means.
#1 -- At the 7 day flush time frame, a perfectly formed and growing embryo will have from as few as 60 to as many as 150 cells on day 7 , these are normally call "Morulae", and are tightly compacted into a group of cells that are - as a group - almost completely round in shape as a ball. A number #1 embryo will have NO dead cells, have no loose material inside the shell ( Called a Zona ) and crisp looking.
#2 -- These embryos are essentialy the same, but may have an out of round shell, may have one or more dead cells lying close to the live ones ormixed in, and will usally have a small amount of loose material inside as well, a result of the degeneration of one or more cells at an earlier age -- say when they were 2-3 days old. This will not severely affect this embryo as long as the main cell mass appears to be normal for that day of collection. These will run almost the same conception rate as a number #1, I have even seen them do better for some strange reason?? Go figure?
#3 -- These will be severely malformed usually, will have a large degree of dead material inside, and the main cell mass will be almost covered upwith dead or dying material. The shells will usually be out of round, flat sided even and will stick to the bottom of the dish like a suction cup. I use these depending on the situation. How many recips, how valuable the cow is, sometimes we only get #3's I hate to say, so we do the best we can on that day. Conception rate will usually (SUCK) for lack of beter terminology, bottomline it is not very good!
If you were to flush your donor on day 7.5 today 8 -- these #3 egg would all be dead or so bad they would not be worth even taking out of the dish. They are ad ead give away on quality grade --a day 8 embryo will be almost twice the size -- both internally and shell size as well -- as a day 7 embryo. The shell will be stretched out by the ezpansion of the blastomeres (Cells) and will look like a hollow ball --a see thru one if you will. Day 7 egg are solid and compact.
Hope this gives you all some sort of refference point. For sales of embryos, if true dilligence has been taken on the honest grading, a #1 will not be much better than a #2, both for survivability and value. It is for the most part-- a MIND game on these two embryos. One always likes to hear the word "Perfect". I might inject this one thought -- I have seen literally thousands of very good embryos -- but I am almost possitive, I have yet to see what would be considered a "PERFECT" embryo -- what ever that might be. We have set high standards for this industry --it pays big dividends most of the time, this quality grading system is just one of many things we do to make this work as well as it does. I am proud to be part of it!
Terry
sawboss
Well-known member
Very informative and well presented. Thanks!
showsteerdlux
Well-known member
Well I just learned alot. Thanks cowboy for the info. Very interesting stuff.
dutch pride
Well-known member
Thank you Cowboy for sharing your expertice with the rest of us. Very much appreciated.
DLZ
DLZ
Cowboy
Well-known member
You are most welcome -- enjoy it very much.
That was the basics, a tip of the ice berg if you will. There are also a set of numbers used for age or Stage of development.
ie -- a 7 day Morula would be called a 4-1 or 4-2, a 7.25 day Early Blastocyst would be a 5-1 or 5-2 etc. Each addition stage would add one number. Keep in mind, that the best freezing embryos - at least normally -- would be the 4 and 5 stage eggs. The embryos past that stage get too big and fragile as a general rule, and will tend to fall apart when frozen. Not all rules are set in stone though, and there have been many older embryos frozen with success.
Generally speaking, you could usually buy #2 embryos with pretty good confidence and not be hurt much - if at all - by conception rates. Bottom line is -- the better the Morphology is, the better they freeze and do later. A wonderfull world!
Thanks for the comments!
Terry
That was the basics, a tip of the ice berg if you will. There are also a set of numbers used for age or Stage of development.
ie -- a 7 day Morula would be called a 4-1 or 4-2, a 7.25 day Early Blastocyst would be a 5-1 or 5-2 etc. Each addition stage would add one number. Keep in mind, that the best freezing embryos - at least normally -- would be the 4 and 5 stage eggs. The embryos past that stage get too big and fragile as a general rule, and will tend to fall apart when frozen. Not all rules are set in stone though, and there have been many older embryos frozen with success.
Generally speaking, you could usually buy #2 embryos with pretty good confidence and not be hurt much - if at all - by conception rates. Bottom line is -- the better the Morphology is, the better they freeze and do later. A wonderfull world!
Thanks for the comments!
Terry
Show Heifer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
Put some embryos in last spring....my number twos were 1 for 7. My number ones were 5-8.
If buying I won't consider #2's. Kinda like paying full price for a car with a big dent.
It also depends on who the embryologist is.....some grade harder than others, some grade easier than others....kinda reminds me of college!!!
If buying I won't consider #2's. Kinda like paying full price for a car with a big dent.
It also depends on who the embryologist is.....some grade harder than others, some grade easier than others....kinda reminds me of college!!!
Cowboy
Well-known member
???
Those are different numbers than you mentioned ealier this fall , I am surprised .
Thought it was 6-8, and 2 of 5 from your initial report -- I am sure the guy put them in correctly -- and I quarantee you they were what I said they were. Disappointed I guess, sorry for the drop in numbers!
Usually the #2's are not that much different -- strange! Were they a mix of both cows -- or the #2's on the one you picked up?? Just curious?
Terry
Those are different numbers than you mentioned ealier this fall , I am surprised .
Thought it was 6-8, and 2 of 5 from your initial report -- I am sure the guy put them in correctly -- and I quarantee you they were what I said they were. Disappointed I guess, sorry for the drop in numbers!
Usually the #2's are not that much different -- strange! Were they a mix of both cows -- or the #2's on the one you picked up?? Just curious?
Terry
Doc
Well-known member
3GFarms said:
(welcome) Glad to have you, I think you'll find more helpful info & less barnyard gossip than any other site!!!! (welcome)
red
Well-known member
Awesome Cowboy! I printed it out for reference.
Show Hef- I thought you always bragged on your flush resluts. Must have read wrong before.
Red
Show Hef- I thought you always bragged on your flush resluts. Must have read wrong before.
Red
Show Heifer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
red - I DID have good results on FLUSHING the cows (didn't know I ever bragged about it).....one of the cows slipped her embryo so hence the 5 of 8. The numbers 2's are a screwed up deal of which DNA'ing will be required, but from what the guy told me (he has the recep herd) he said none at first, then maybe 1, when I reviewed the numbers I thought 2. I guess we will find out Mid March.
I have an upcoming flush of a shorthorn cow.....hoping for good results!!!
I still will not buy number 2 embryos. And actually won't buy embryos unless I know WHO flushed the cow. Call me picky, but, it is MY money and I will spend it how I see fit!
I have an upcoming flush of a shorthorn cow.....hoping for good results!!!
I still will not buy number 2 embryos. And actually won't buy embryos unless I know WHO flushed the cow. Call me picky, but, it is MY money and I will spend it how I see fit!
