EPD's

[Tx Black Steer]

This may be a stupid question. I may be the only one who doesn't understand this. I have always heard people talking about EPD's and all. I am looking at some bulls to breed some heifers to and was wondering about EPD's. How to understand the numbers and what is good and bad? Thanks for any help!

 

[twistedhshowstock]

Well whats good and bad as far as numbers really depends on the breed.  EPD's are not uniform across breeds, so a value that is good for one breed may be horrible for another.  For heifers naturally the thing that is most important is BW and Calving ease.  If they have a calving ease EPD then the higher the number the better, opposite for BW higher the number means bigger the calf.  My general rule of thumb is to stay as close to zero as possible with a BW for a heifer bull.  If I can find one with a negative BW that has a high weaning and yearling weight that is typically my favorite option. Like I said, its hard to say what is good and bad as far as numbers without knowing what breed you are looking at.

 

[Tx Black Steer]

The heifers are club calf bred and I was thinking of useing a angus bull, but just mainly want low something as safe as possible to breed to. So if you know about angus, what is good numbers and bad for angus. If you know of any other breeds what is good for them?

 

[Rocky Hill Simmental]

I agree with twistedhshowstock.

A way to get a good idea of birthweight or calving ease EPDs for breeding heifers is to look at programs that sell bred replacement heifers. I like the Show-Me Select Sale standards, personally.
http://agebb.missouri.edu/select/prgmreq.htm
Listed by breed about 3/4th's of the way down the page. For example, if you wanted to breed a heifer to an angus bull, it is a good idea to get one with a CE EPD of 7 or higher.

I hope this helps you!

 

[twistedhshowstock]

For the Angus Breed, as stated above you definately should have no problem finding a good bull with a calving ease EPD of 7 or higher. And there are plenty of bulls out there in the Angus breed with negative BW EPD's.  I would definately stay below a 1 on the BW EPD with Angus, and prefer to be in the negatives, but that is my opinion.  I tend to look at the negative BW EPDs and then look at those bulls and their WW and YW EPDs and see which one is going to give me the biggest spread from BW to WW and YW, this signifies growth.  One with a low BW and hi WW and YW is going to be more likely to give you a calf that is going to come out small and hit the ground growing.
If your really looking for calving ease you can also just always ask around.  EPDs are not always 100%, it really depends on how long and how accurately the data on those bloodlines have been reported.  If you find a bull you like and arent sure about him you can always ask around or call the supplier and ask how he has been for heifers.  Several of the semen distributors websites will also tell you if a bull is heifer safe or not.
If your not worried about breed, my sure fire Heifer bull of choice is a shorthorn, Jakes Proud Jazz...he is a -3 BW EPD...I have never really seen him power a heifer up in my opinion, but all his calves tend to come out pretty stylish and attractive, and they will be small.  For clubbies I typically see Ali and some of his sons as the most heifer safe bulls out there in the clubby world. One I am really liking right now is Thriller...had a friend have a pretty cocky and stout heifer calf out of him the other day that was pretty small and I have herd others say their Thriller calves were pretty small to, so he may be one to watch for calving ease.
There are also tons of post on here about calving ease bulls and heifer bulls.

 

[nate53]

http://origenbeef.org/store/semen.php?breedId=1+&enter.x=23&enter.y=11
For black angus I would go with at least a 10 or higher for CED, 1.0 or lower for BW., also look at the actual B.W. of the animal, look at the CEM if you want to save heifers (I like 9 or above),there are quite a few bulls out there that meet this criteria some with growth some not so much.  But you won't get any safer than using a angus bull with these #'s.  IMO
http://angus.org/ look around on the angus site they list breed averages and explain the meanings of all their epd's

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

As twistedshowstick said, you also want to look at accuracy. It is usually  listed under the individual epd values. The closer to 100 the better. They will never hit 100, but a CE 10 bull at 90% accuracy is a lot safer bet than a CE 15 at 30%. For non parent bulls, all they have to go by are pedigree estimates. As a bull has more progeny, he can vary from what was expected and the epd will change.

 

[nate53]

a CE 10 bull at 90% accuracy is a lot safer bet than a CE 15 at 30%. For non parent bulls, all they have to go by are pedigree estimates. As a bull has more progeny, he can vary from what was expected and the epd will change.

I will have to disagree! ;D  In regards to the CE10 (90% acc) being safer than the CE15 (30 acc),  they don't just past out CE 15's their is good reason they start out with that high of # (their genetics suggest it), usually the sire and dam have proven themselves (hence they have high acc. and high #'s).  What is the % chance that the CE 15 bull would ever make it down to a CE 10.  I guess what I'm saying is I would not hesitate to use a nonparent bull with a  CE of 15 on heifers, I would hesitate to use a nonparent bull with a 7 for CE on heifers.  CE10 is good it's just not a CE 15, especially when he's looking for something to breed to clubbys. 

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

Just a generalization to make a point ;D.  I'll have to meet you in the middle on this one. The 15 CE at 30% definately has the potential to be a better CE bull than the 10 at 90%, but there is always the chance that skeletons are hiding in the closet, and I don't want them jumping out on my heifers.

 

[aandtcattle]

Just a generalization to make a point ;D.  I'll have to meet you in the middle on this one. The 15 CE at 30% definately has the potential to be a better CE bull than the 10 at 90%, but there is always the chance that skeletons are hiding in the closet, and I don't want them jumping out on my heifers.

I agree with SSIMMENTALS on this one, sorry Nate.  I have seen way too many angus bulls hit the seen with high CED and/or low birthweight EPD's and by the time their accuracies hit that 70 to 80% mark they look like bulls for use on mature cows only.  In my humble opinion, you will never regret using a highly proven bull regardless of your main focus.  On the flipside, you can gamble all you want with young bulls that are supposed to be the next big thing for trait "X".  He can be stacked for generations with predictability and if he does not transmit, youre gonna get burned.  Oh, the joys of genetic deviation! <cowboy>

 

[nate53]

Just a generalization to make a point ;D.  I'll have to meet you in the middle on this one. The 15 CE at 30% definately has the potential to be a better CE bull than the 10 at 90%, but there is always the chance that skeletons are hiding in the closet, and I don't want them jumping out on my heifers.

I agree with SSIMMENTALS on this one, sorry Nate.  I have seen way too many angus bulls hit the seen with high CED and/or low birthweight EPD's and by the time their accuracies hit that 70 to 80% mark they look like bulls for use on mature cows only.  In my humble opinion, you will never regret using a highly proven bull regardless of your main focus.  On the flipside, you can gamble all you want with young bulls that are supposed to be the next big thing for trait "X".  He can be stacked for generations with predictability and if he does not transmit, youre gonna get burned.  Oh, the joys of genetic deviation! <cowboy>

I do not disagree with the above statements, I'm just saying it's not black and white.  But remember all these proven bulls were once unproven and alot of somebodies  gave them a chance because of the epd.s and their genetics  and now they are proven (one way or the other). Also I am sure their are skeletons in the closet of bulls with 90% acc. as well.  Also their is no future without using unproven bulls.  A&T could you name a couple of bulls that went from extreme high calving ease and low b.w. to just using on cows (I would like to do a little research on them).  SSIMMENTALS - I will have to meet you in the middle on this subject as well.

 

[RyanChandler]

Just a generalization to make a point ;D.  I'll have to meet you in the middle on this one. The 15 CE at 30% definately has the potential to be a better CE bull than the 10 at 90%, but there is always the chance that skeletons are hiding in the closet, and I don't want them jumping out on my heifers.

I agree with SSIMMENTALS on this one, sorry Nate.  I have seen way too many angus bulls hit the seen with high CED and/or low birthweight EPD's and by the time their accuracies hit that 70 to 80% mark they look like bulls for use on mature cows only.  In my humble opinion, you will never regret using a highly proven bull regardless of your main focus.  On the flipside, you can gamble all you want with young bulls that are supposed to be the next big thing for trait "X".  He can be stacked for generations with predictability and if he does not transmit, youre gonna get burned.  Oh, the joys of genetic deviation! <cowboy>

That's the way I see it too, Aaron.  I'd use a 5 CED at 90% over a 15 at 20-30% everytime. I used a C S U Aggie Emulation 2144 son with a CED of 3 on over 20 commercial heifers and didn't assist one calf.  Personally, I look at the individuals act BW, then the sires act BW, then the Dams act BW, then the BW EPD, then the CED EPD. All in that order.  Then again, I select cattle based on Depth, then width, then length... everyone has different selection protocols.. until this one fails me, I'm stickin with it.

 

[KSanburg]

I appreciate EPD's and as with many things they are only as honest as the breeder that reported them, and there are breeders in every breed that will distort the weights they report. I would agree completely with the folks that have posted here, but you need to be more observant than just the EPD's and by in large the CED # has taken care of a lot of these issues, but you really need to evaluate the animal to a large degree, and while a 70# birth weight is good if the animals is not made right it does not make him a heifer bull. I personally have used bulls with a 85 to 87 pound birth weight on heifers and have never touched a calf while calving. I realize that this is not generally the rule but there are exceptions to the rules as well. I have also had to put a zipper in a heifer on a 72 pound calf and there wasn't a chance of pulling the calf due to the small pelvic area of the heifer. I guess what I am saying is do your home work, if you purchased the heifers you might want to have the pelvic area measured and then you may want make a more educated decision from there as to the bull you may want to use. IMO