ET Weston Ablo daughter

[librarian]

I'm looking for others.

I think you're gonna find the grass fed 'types' to all be below average in terms of marbling.

This has been puzzling me because it seems like the Leader lines marble well. I consider that "type", to be grassy.
Is this coming from Leader21, or father back, or from some of the milkier Dual Purpose cows mixed into the modern Leader derived bulls?

 

[r.n.reed]

There does appear to be a correlation between higher marbling and the heavier milking type cattle which typically have a phenotype quite different than the type sought by most grass finishers.Breed average is .06 so I think it could be quite possible to develop a line of grass fed type Shorthorns that could exceed that number.The bar is not too high.
The Leader influence in most pedigrees at this point is 50% at best and until it gets blended and stacked in the pedigrees, we are kind of peering through the veil.It takes generations to fix a trait or type.I get a kick out of people who think they have solved the calving ease issue for example by using a son of a calving ease bull for 1 generation and then follow up with an all out performance growth bull.

 

[mbigelow]

Dan, those are some nice looking heifers! 
Gary, I agree about the ASA website very hard to navigate and not nearly as informative as I think it should be.  The pedigree with missing sires is a glitch that the staff are aware of and are working on.  I was have the same issue's. 

 

[r.n.reed]

Matt,it does take some time to learn the ropes, especially for the computer illiterate like me.I think there is the potential to find a wealth of information in the site once some things are fixed,entered, and processes made more user friendly.I guess I am surprised at the fact that they released it with so much bad or missing info.

 

[oakview]

Didn't the MARC data from several years back show Shorthorns to be among the best marbling of any of the breeds tested?  I'll have to get out my old issues and do some research.  I think Sho-Me farms did a lot of shear testing with the University of Missouri and had some data on the lines that tended to at least be more tender.  Lots of considerations, lots of research to be done.  I'd like average size calves that come easy, have a good growth rate, turn into efficient gainers that marble well and top the sale.  The heifer mates need to be easy keeping, good uddered, milk well, calve easily, good natured, and pretty to look at, all in an efficient package.  And they need to be polled and defect free.  Some of you might like red ones although I prefer roans.  That's asking quite a bit.  When I get it perfected, I'll let you know.  Or, if you get it perfected, let me know. 

In my opinion, there were more muscular, better milking lines in their day than the Leader 21s.  They were sure tough to beat in the showring, though. 

 

[Medium Rare]

Matt,it does take some time to learn the ropes, especially for the computer illiterate like me.I think there is the potential to find a wealth of information in the site once some things are fixed,entered, and processes made more user friendly.I guess I am surprised at the fact that they released it with so much bad or missing info.

It does seem to take quite a bit of effort to maneuver through the system.

The results I got when I went to do a birthweight search as a guest were surprising. I simply entered 0 as a max and most of the results kicked out are are a bunch of Angus bulls. If I'm a potential customer on the Shorthorn Association database, I'm there to see Shorthorn bulls. Shouldn't I at least be able to narrow the field down to only Shorthorn bulls?

Not being able to sort the field using multiple epds at a time causes some significant effort on the researcher as well. Being able to "mate" your cow to a potential bull and see their offspring's numbers seems like something that would be useful too.

The little things are often signs of big things. I hope it's just growing pains.

 

[r.n.reed]

One of the more frustrating things for me in regards to searches is the fact that if you do manage to find more than 1 Shorthorn in a search result you have to start the search over for each animal you want to look at on that list.

 

[librarian]

I thought it was my backwoods connection that was preventing me from searching multiple epd's in the same search. It would be nice if there was door back to the old epd sorting program that could be used until this one gets ironed out.

Oakview, In my opinion, there were more muscular, better milking lines in their day than the Leader 21s. 
What would be a For Instance? I don't like Leader 21 that much because he looks( to me, which doesn't mean anything)  like a bull that would not make good cows, so an alternative from that era would be great.

 

[Okotoks]

I thought it was my backwoods connection that was preventing me from searching multiple epd's in the same search. It would be nice if there was door back to the old epd sorting program that could be used until this one gets ironed out.

Oakview, In my opinion, there were more muscular, better milking lines in their day than the Leader 21s. 
What would be a For Instance? I don't like Leader 21 that much because he looks( to me, which doesn't mean anything)  like a bull that would not make good cows, so an alternative from that era would be great.

I think Leader 21st produced some pretty outstanding daughters. He may have been noted more for the number of his sons and grandsons that made herd sires. Here is a photo of a 3 year old 21st daughter from the Remitall Dispersal Catalogue. She is shown with her Pheasant Creek Leader 4th heifer calf and the bull she raised as a two year old by the Australian Bogan Yalta. This cow's dam was by a son of the 21st as well so both she and her calf are linebred Leader 21st

I had to scan this photo from the catalogue upside down. I rotated it and saved it but when I upload it it's back upside down ??? It is right side up in my pictures...tech challenged here  (dog)

 

[beebe]

I thought it was my backwoods connection that was preventing me from searching multiple epd's in the same search. It would be nice if there was door back to the old epd sorting program that could be used until this one gets ironed out.

Oakview, In my opinion, there were more muscular, better milking lines in their day than the Leader 21s. 
What would be a For Instance? I don't like Leader 21 that much because he looks( to me, which doesn't mean anything)  like a bull that would not make good cows, so an alternative from that era would be great.

Boa Kae Royal Oak might be what you are wondering about.  Cattle that have a lot of capcity, body instead of legs.

 

[librarian]

Okotoks, I stand corrected. I wish the picture showed her udder. I'd drive to Canada just to look at that catalog! I can't find a picture of Bogan Yalta, but that's really interesting that Remittal was outcrossing line bred Leader 21 cattle to Australian bulls.

Beebe- I actually have some Royal Oak. I have been so tempted to put it on the best black Galloways I can find to lay the foundation for a blue grey group, but my conscience won't let me use it for a cross. If I used it on the daughters of my own bull I might get a White Cloud type result. My bull throws a lot of white, but similar type.

Should we just go to Australia for marbling?

 

[librarian]

Had to save it, then take a screenshot. Learned that on SP!

 

[Okotoks]

Okotoks, I stand corrected. I wish the picture showed her udder. I'd drive to Canada just to look at that catalog! I can't find a picture of Bogan Yalta, but that's really interesting that Remittal was outcrossing line bred Leader 21 cattle to Australian bulls.

Beebe- I actually have some Royal Oak. I have been so tempted to put it on the best black Galloways I can find to lay the foundation for a blue grey group, but my conscience won't let me use it for a cross. If I used it on the daughters of my own bull I might get a White Cloud type result. My bull throws a lot of white, but similar type.

Should we just go to Australia for marbling?

Thanks for correcting the photo!! I can scan you up a photo of her dam and maternal brother that shows the dam's udder. The calf is by Bogan Yalta and was the high seller at $9200.  I am sure there are a lot of good marbling shorthorns in North America we just have to gather information and identify them, but we need to start now! The advantage of the Australian bloodlines is they are well on their way to identifying the bulls with higher marbling. Some of those bulls have a good infusion of North American genetics as did bulls like Bogan Yalta. The Remitall Dispersal Catalogue is a classic!

 

[3 Eagles shorthorns]

Is there any semen available of this bull?

 

[librarian]

Sure can't argue with that udder.
Did a search on the name Butte Lee on the ASA site. They have 161 animals in the database and the marbling is pretty good.

 

[RyanChandler]

Should we just go to Australia for marbling?

Yes- that is where you're going to find the harder doing shorthorns that have the phenotype more commonly known for better marbling.  Look at the slicker/tighter hided, more angular cattle within any breed and there you will find those that are more prone to higher marbling. 

At the opposite end of that spectrum is going to be the little no neck frumpy cattle that tend to be easier keeping, higher back fat, but overall poorer in terms of marbling.

 

[librarian]

http://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3098353&member_id=

Where did they get that 0.35 marbling epd on Leader 21?
I can't even attribute it on the (generous) 0.75 entry level marbling number r.n.pointed out...you have to go back quite a way to get to that. The system seems sort of fictitious in general.

 

[RyanChandler]

Being able to "mate" your cow to a potential bull and see their offspring's numbers seems like something that would be useful too.

Login

Click on TOOLS in the toolbar to the left

Click on PROGENCY CALCULATOR

Click BULLS

Type in bulls reg #  OR If you own the bull, select him from drop down menu

Click SELECT ALL (check mark will appear next to each of your cows in inventory)

Click RETRIEVE THIS BULL'S INFORMATION

You can do up to two bulls at a time

 

[justintime]

I still have two vials of Bogan Yalta semen in one of my tanks. I worked at Remitall when they dispersed and my dad purchased 18 vials of semen from him in that sale. Quite frankly, we were never real impressed with the calves we had from him. Despite Yalta being a good sized bull, his offspring were quite small framed. We never had a Bogan Yalta calf that was worth retaining in our herd or selling as a breeding animal. I also do not remember any of the offspring of Yalta that sold in the Remitall dispersal, ever going on to breed that well either.
In the early 80s, when we were running a feedlot as well as our purebred herds of Shorthorns, Simmental and Maines, we did several years of carcass testing on as many Shorthorns as we could. Several Shorthorn breeders sent their steers to us to feed and we followed them to the rail and collected carcass data on them. We also collected carcass data on our steers from our Simmental and Maines, as well as from our commercial herd as well. What we found was an eye opener to me, in that the Leader line had pretty dismal rib eye areas and it became apparent why many feedlots in that day were discounting Shorthorns in the markets. Here in Canada today, Shorthorn sired feeder steers are near the top of the market, providing they are good cattle. Poor cattle of any breed never bring a top dollar
Some of the Leader cattle we followed to the rail had tiny rib eye areas of 7.5- 8.2 square inches with live weights of over 1100 lbs. I also remember the discount we got on one steer who weighed 1070 lbs and had an actual REA of 6.2 square inches. He was discounted $.56/ lb on his dressed weight. Even back then, this meant there was too much fat and not enough red meat on them. The first Irish sired steers we tested showed an increase in REA of over 2 square inches with no reduction of marbling. I think this is probably the main thing many of the Irish genetics from that era did for the breed. When we decided to bring the first Irish cattle to Canada in 1974, we felt they may improve some poor traits we were seeing at that time. 1) they had great testicles and we felt they could improve testicle shape in our bulls 2) they had natural thickness from hooks to pins that was lacking in many lines in that day 3) most Irish females had excellent udders and many North American lines needed improvement in udder quality 4) the Irish had more frame which we felt was needed to compete with other breeds in that day. We never once thought of the Irish cattle as being where we wanted to end up, but only considered them to be a tool to help us develop more useful cattle in all areas of the industry.
I see some breeders today that want to use semen from any old bulls they can find from the 70s and 80s. I have always maintained that some of the bulls from this era were much ahead of their times and can be very useful today. But there are also another group of older genetics that were bad back when they were alive and they are still bad today. I see no problem in using old genetics if you understand what you are using. I have used a bunch of older genetics myself, and have had some excellent results. I have also used some that I wish I had tossed in the garbage can.

 

[oakview]

Thank you for reinforcing my opinion that there were genetics available that had more muscle than the Leader 21 line of that era.  Our Leader 21 females weren't the best milkers unless their mothers were real good.  As far as show cattle of the late 60's and early 70's, though, they were the best we had.  We had a son of Boa Kae White Tornado that sired some good topped, heavy quartered calves and his daughters were consistently pretty good cows.  I don't think you'd want to use him today unless you were happy with 450 pound weaned calves.  There were a few bulls back then that did sire some muscle and if you look back in the old Shorthorn magazines you can pick them out and also pick out some breeders that focused on improving rib eye area.  Some that impressed me, ironically, were Leader 9th (he never impressed me with his muscle expression) descendants from Harvey Fulton.  Stouts President 26A was touted as a muscle bull (Stouts advertised quite a few bulls with large rib eyes)  The name Nelco Dillon rings a bell, too.  There was another Kenmar bull that ended up out west that I would use any time.  I'll look up his name when I have a minute.  There were a few certified meat sires from that era including Colomeadow Sting Ray from Pettys in Iowa.  One of the standards was 2.0 square inches of ribeye per 100 lbs. carcass.  Quite a departure from what JIT described of him Leader 21 line calves.