Failure of the Shorthorn breed???

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

I'm confused to why people are attacking Crybaby right now  ???. here this from other breeders that have different breeds of cattle all of the time. Its like people that argue whether Ford, Chevy, or Dodge is better. Every breed has its perks and every breed has their flaws and no matter how much people argue about it, the difference in opinion will always be there.

 

[mooch]

Found this to be interesting-- apparently this is nothing new...

that is discounting roans at the market place, and a 'selling of pedigrees' instead of stock..

<deadhorse>

I suppose it will last for atleast 200 years...

There is a newer bull called Jakes Proud Jazz you should look at . Sounds like just what you are looking for.

 

[shortii]

I'm confused to why people are attacking Crybaby right now  ??

I'm confused why crybaby is attacking shorthorns right now.

He posted an article that he found interesting. If I found the same article I probably would have posted the same thing and maybe joked about it. I'm still not seeing how he is attacking the breed. I must seriously be missing something here. 

 

[shortii]

I'm confused to why people are attacking Crybaby right now  ???. here this from other breeders that have different breeds of cattle all of the time. Its like people that argue whether Ford, Chevy, or Dodge is better. Every breed has its perks and every breed has their flaws and no matter how much people argue about it, the difference in opinion will always be there.

Thanks for highlighting here in my post when it should have been hear. I'm sure everyone was confused when I made that mistake : (clapping)

 

[OH Breeder]

I'm confused to why people are attacking Crybaby right now  ??

I'm confused why crybaby is attacking shorthorns right now.

He posted an article that he found interesting. If I found the same article I probably would have posted the same thing and maybe joked about it. I'm still not seeing how he is attacking the breed. I must seriously be missing something here. 

I think what you are missing is most folks have figured out the wolf in "sheeps clothing". Trying to assume another identity while putting out same old messages about shorthorns. Its a knee jerk reaction for some due to the taste that was left in many folks mouthes from the poster.

 

[shortdawg]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

 

[knabe]

Has this happened in Maines?

 

[shortdawg]

Has this happened in Maines?

IDK. maybe so since they have the Maine and Maintainer deal - we've never shown maines ?

 

[RyanChandler]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

Thats a better idea for sure.  Ide actually prefer them do away with the whole shorty plus deal except as in an upgrade program like the red angus do with the classifications 1A,B etc.  

All these crossbred cattle classes are kinda silly to me.  If you don't have purebred papers the animal should be shown as AOB - as it is a mongrel and should be shown in a mkt class as one.  Crossbreds in a breeding class?? oxymoron...

 

[JTM]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

Thats a better idea for sure.  Ide actually prefer them do away with the whole shorty plus deal except as in an upgrade program like the red angus do with the classifications 1A,B etc.  
All these crossbred cattle classes are kinda silly to me.  If you don't have purebred papers the animal should be shown as AOB - as it is a mongrel and should be shown in a mkt class as one.  Crossbreds in a breeding class?? oxymoron...

Actually I think crossbred females are the best breeding females you can get if they are bred right and not clubby. As far as the percentage at 50% and above goes, I know that it is hurting the semen sales on my 3/4 Shorthorn bull because offspring with no Shorthorn in it will be less than 50%. It would definitely be a topic to debate and discuss.

 

[RyanChandler]

I think a true "crossbred" is the best breeding female as well.  The problem is many on here and potentially you included are confusing the word "crossbred" with composite.  A crossbred is a F1- the result of crossing 2 purebreds. This crossbred when bred to a bull of a 3rd breed maximizes hybrid vigor and forms the ideal feeder.  A 3/4 bull bred to anything makes a composite- and until composites are stabalized (ie. brangus, gerts) they're at the bottom of the foodchain as far as hybrid vigor is concerned.

 

[shortii]

So if everyone is going to get upset about the shorthorn plus deal than why isn't everyone complaining about the Chi association? They only need 6.25% Chi blood to register a calf and be eligible to show as a purebred at national shows.


Breeding cattle born on or after January 1, 2012 must have a minimum of 6.25% Chianina blood in order to participate in ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Breeding cattle with less that 6.25% Chianina blood are still eligible for registration and may still be shown or sold at any show or sale other than ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Nationally sponsored shows or sales include the following: The Southewestern Stock Show & Rodeo held in Ft. Worth; the Junior National; the National Show in Louisville; and the National Western Stock Show in Denver.

Please note cattle born before January 1, 2012 that have less that 6.25% Chianina may still show in ACA nationally sponsored shows. 

Everything highlighted in red has been copy and pasted from the Chi website.

And to continue, (Not that I have anything against you JTM so please don't take this as me attacking you) how can people register cattle that are 3/4 blood and call them purebred when they have a 1/4 of another breed in them? Technically they have more than one breed in them which means they should be crossbred. What I am trying to get at is that if you eliminate the shorthorn plus program then almost every breed association shouldn't exist either.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I have just finished reading this entire thread... The original article doesn't even touch on the fact that the Shorthorn cows were what helped make the Hereford breed when they were crossed together.

I started this blog as I feel there is so much positive traits that are being ignored in the general Shorthorn bashing theme of SP. I really don't understand why people who have chosen Shorthorns as their livelihood have felt the need to join in.

http://distinctlyshorthorn.blogspot.ca/2012_03_01_archive.html

 

[JTM]

So if everyone is going to get upset about the shorthorn plus deal than why isn't everyone complaining about the Chi association? They only need 6.25% Chi blood to register a calf and be eligible to show as a purebred at national shows.

Breeding cattle born on or after January 1, 2012 must have a minimum of 6.25% Chianina blood in order to participate in ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Breeding cattle with less that 6.25% Chianina blood are still eligible for registration and may still be shown or sold at any show or sale other than ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Nationally sponsored shows or sales include the following: The Southewestern Stock Show & Rodeo held in Ft. Worth; the Junior National; the National Show in Louisville; and the National Western Stock Show in Denver.
Please note cattle born before January 1, 2012 that have less that 6.25% Chianina may still show in ACA nationally sponsored shows. 
Everything highlighted in red has been copy and pasted from the Chi website.
And to continue, (Not that I have anything against you JTM so please don't take this as me attacking you) how can people register cattle that are 3/4 blood and call them purebred when they have a 1/4 of another breed in them? Technically they have more than one breed in them which means they should be crossbred. What I am trying to get at is that if you eliminate the shorthorn plus program then almost every breed association shouldn't exist either.

Shortii, I don't take any of that personally. I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree at all. My point was that only allowing 50% Shorthorn and higher to show in a nationally sanctioned Shorthorn Plus show will only allow breeders of other breeds to use Purebred bulls to AI their cows to in order to get the qualifying calf. I'm not promoting the idea that a 3/4 Shorthorn should be considered purebred and never will. This is a Shorthorn Plus show or "Composite/Crossbred" show with Shorthorn influence. The question is, what should the percentage be and why? Why is it 50%? I haven't been in the meetings to hear other's thoughts on it and admittedly don't know all the pros and cons..

 

[shortii]

So if everyone is going to get upset about the shorthorn plus deal than why isn't everyone complaining about the Chi association? They only need 6.25% Chi blood to register a calf and be eligible to show as a purebred at national shows.

Breeding cattle born on or after January 1, 2012 must have a minimum of 6.25% Chianina blood in order to participate in ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Breeding cattle with less that 6.25% Chianina blood are still eligible for registration and may still be shown or sold at any show or sale other than ACA nationally sponsored shows or sales. Nationally sponsored shows or sales include the following: The Southewestern Stock Show & Rodeo held in Ft. Worth; the Junior National; the National Show in Louisville; and the National Western Stock Show in Denver.
Please note cattle born before January 1, 2012 that have less that 6.25% Chianina may still show in ACA nationally sponsored shows. 
Everything highlighted in red has been copy and pasted from the Chi website.
And to continue, (Not that I have anything against you JTM so please don't take this as me attacking you) how can people register cattle that are 3/4 blood and call them purebred when they have a 1/4 of another breed in them? Technically they have more than one breed in them which means they should be crossbred. What I am trying to get at is that if you eliminate the shorthorn plus program then almost every breed association shouldn't exist either.

Shortii, I don't take any of that personally. I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree at all. My point was that only allowing 50% Shorthorn and higher to show in a nationally sanctioned Shorthorn Plus show will only allow breeders of other breeds to use Purebred bulls to AI their cows to in order to get the qualifying calf. I'm not promoting the idea that a 3/4 Shorthorn should be considered purebred and never will. This is a Shorthorn Plus show or "Composite/Crossbred" show with Shorthorn influence. The question is, what should the percentage be and why? Why is it 50%? I haven't been in the meetings to hear other's thoughts on it and admittedly don't know all the pros and cons..

Well I am glad you didn't take what I said the wrong way. I hope everyone doesn't think I was trying to bash shorthorns, about 90% of my herd are shorthorns and I truly enjoy the breed and the people that are apart of it.

 

[shortdawg]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

Thats a better idea for sure.  Ide actually prefer them do away with the whole shorty plus deal except as in an upgrade program like the red angus do with the classifications 1A,B etc.  
All these crossbred cattle classes are kinda silly to me.  If you don't have purebred papers the animal should be shown as AOB - as it is a mongrel and should be shown in a mkt class as one.  Crossbreds in a breeding class?? oxymoron...

Actually I think crossbred females are the best breeding females you can get if they are bred right and not clubby. As far as the percentage at 50% and above goes, I know that it is hurting the semen sales on my 3/4 Shorthorn bull because offspring with no Shorthorn in it will be less than 50%. It would definitely be a topic to debate and discuss.

I like Shorty Plus cattle and breed several every year but I can understand the 50% deal. If they are at least 50% they have as much or more Shorthorn blood than any other blood. If you want a calf to represent what your breed can do in a crossbreeding situation a 50% blood or better is a good idea. JMHO. Like I always say, breed what makes you and your customers happy and don't worry about the rest.  ;D

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

Thats a better idea for sure.  Ide actually prefer them do away with the whole shorty plus deal except as in an upgrade program like the red angus do with the classifications 1A,B etc.  

All these crossbred cattle classes are kinda silly to me.  If you don't have purebred papers the animal should be shown as AOB - as it is a mongrel and should be shown in a mkt class as one.  Crossbreds in a breeding class?? oxymoron...

Is a 3/4 shorthorn 1/4 angus animal a mongrel? What if a breeder is smart enough to match english breed to english breed and type to type? Its still 75% shorty. Crossbred cattle still have to breed? Whats wrong with them being in a "breeding class"?


I dont care what you call it. Im breeding up my own lines of shorties and I used angus as a ingredient. Mongrel just sticks in my crawl I guess. The shorthorn herdbooks are so far from accurate . Shorties already have Chi, Maines and who knows what else and are registered pure. I remember someone not long ago had a reg shorty heifer actually type charlois or something like that. So who knows what anything is anymore.

I do agree with the 50% deal. 6.25% to qualify seems like a breed just trying to survive.



There will always be a place for a good purebred shorthorn bull. Period. Think of all the breed has went threw and is still alive. No where to go but up from here.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So are you saying the breed association should let in blacks higher than the %50 they now do?

I had an interesting conversation with a prominent breeder who was on the Shorty Plus committee. His thought process was that by only allowing 50% or higher shorty plus cattle to compete as shorty plus in the ASA sanctioned shows it would encourage breeders to breed up instead of breed down. It made sense to me .........

Thats a better idea for sure.  Ide actually prefer them do away with the whole shorty plus deal except as in an upgrade program like the red angus do with the classifications 1A,B etc.  
All these crossbred cattle classes are kinda silly to me.  If you don't have purebred papers the animal should be shown as AOB - as it is a mongrel and should be shown in a mkt class as one.  Crossbreds in a breeding class?? oxymoron...

Actually I think crossbred females are the best breeding females you can get if they are bred right and not clubby. As far as the percentage at 50% and above goes, I know that it is hurting the semen sales on my 3/4 Shorthorn bull because offspring with no Shorthorn in it will be less than 50%. It would definitely be a topic to debate and discuss.

How many Simmental breeders hesitate to use a bull with 25% or 50% angus in it? Yep thats right. Nobody.  They dont. A english / continental cross vs a english / english cross. Common sense out the window. Nothing wrong with the simmy way of thinking just seems hard for shorthorn folks to swallow it. How many simmental bulls in AI catalogs have 50% or whatever angus in them? ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So here comes a 3/4 shorthorn bull with a 1/4 shot of the most highly proven red angus bull of all time in his pedigree!!!NAHHHHHH, dont try it. He may actually do some good. Its so hard for folks to try something different.

 

[RyanChandler]

But Brock, there is something wrong with the PB Simmental way of thinking.  They breed % composites to % composites.  There is no stabalized breeding going on thus no consistency.  Breed regression occurs when the percentages are mongrelized- the opposite of hybrid vigor.

 

[hamburgman]

Really don't know what you are meaning XBAR all evidence shows that composite breeds retain their hybrid vigor over generations.  Consistency depends on the animals physical consistency more generally than genetics.  You can put a horrible group of angus cows together with all frame scores and you can put a nice set of composites together and the composites will breed consistent.  Strong argument to be made that purebred animals aren't needed and because of efficiency no reason to have nothing but xbreds.