CAB
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Are there anymore flushmates to Fire Water and Smoke On The Water?
Fire Water for slick smokey steers
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Freddy
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I've got a question for you guys about good show steers an FIREWATER , when a good steer walks an some of the rules I have gathered over the years, should that steer cover most of his front hoof print with back one... I guess I have always used this in raising my cattle over the years ...An if they are you should look at the video of Firewater, one person I think noticed it he called him short strided ....Just wondering, I have calves coming next fall out of Firewater an will have a pretty good idea ....
oakie
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Freddy said:
I was getting worried that my perception on that bull missed the target
SWMO,
Rio Blanco is a WCR Prime Cut. Prime Cut was big 20 years ago and was used extensively. The problem with him is that every one has cattle that re related in some way via using WCR and bulls. For female production I like Mr Perfect and HTA White Hot blood lines. Look at a bull like NC Field rep to produce practical females with performance. The Eaton cattle are also very maternal and practical.
From what I haVe herd and seen from the pictures of Hamms Mogo is that he has the same problems many Full French bulls from the1960 and 1970's era had namely small testicles. This makes selling bulls tough at bull sales as many I sold then wouldn't make the cut today on testicle measurement. I have used the bulls in his perigree and liked them for the time. I think a bull like MXS vermillion would do about the same things for you and not have the hasles of using an old Full French pedigree. A Full French Bull worth trying is Pinay. Check him out at: http://www.genesdiffusion.com/Bovin/Charolais-race-pure.aspx?n=FR8552394134. he is worth at Alta beef the last time I checked.
If you are using smoke on the water then you do not mind using a red factor bull. To see what you can get in a red factor check out: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/dbarl/semen10/pierce.htm and http://www.buyagro.com/sandan/herdsires.htm.
Rio Blanco is a WCR Prime Cut. Prime Cut was big 20 years ago and was used extensively. The problem with him is that every one has cattle that re related in some way via using WCR and bulls. For female production I like Mr Perfect and HTA White Hot blood lines. Look at a bull like NC Field rep to produce practical females with performance. The Eaton cattle are also very maternal and practical.
From what I haVe herd and seen from the pictures of Hamms Mogo is that he has the same problems many Full French bulls from the1960 and 1970's era had namely small testicles. This makes selling bulls tough at bull sales as many I sold then wouldn't make the cut today on testicle measurement. I have used the bulls in his perigree and liked them for the time. I think a bull like MXS vermillion would do about the same things for you and not have the hasles of using an old Full French pedigree. A Full French Bull worth trying is Pinay. Check him out at: http://www.genesdiffusion.com/Bovin/Charolais-race-pure.aspx?n=FR8552394134. he is worth at Alta beef the last time I checked.
If you are using smoke on the water then you do not mind using a red factor bull. To see what you can get in a red factor check out: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/dbarl/semen10/pierce.htm and http://www.buyagro.com/sandan/herdsires.htm.
Bradenh
Well-known member
not sure how well you know the charolais breed, you got bulls like wyoming wind in there and he will never be repeated. hate to steal a topic but that isnt logical. hes good thats for sure but no wyoming wind
Freddy
Well-known member
I really enjoy you guys talking about the Charolais cattle ,my family introduced Charolais into Ne. about 54 years ago, a bull from the Litton ranch an had cattle on display at Denver . Did you know that in Ne. in 60's -70's over 90 % of the CHAROLAIS were Brahma influenced , an most of them came from Texas ....Our first load of cows were half red-cream which ever color you want , Mrs. Miechalis said true Charolais were not pure white but were " the silver cattle with a touch of gold "an if you have seen French cattle this is true ...
One thing I think you guys are all over the country an what works in CANADA doesn't work in Ne. because of difference in the country an how handled ...Some one was blasting the earlier French cattle , well there memory on small testicles is different than mine ...I thought there biggest problem was their back legs an particularly the hocks an weak ankles ... The French cattle I liked then were AVIGNON,AGILON , BRAMARD AN PROABLY , DESSAUNY . sORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING AN THERE MIGHT BE OTHERS SIRES i DIDN'T REMEMBER NOW ....But those French bulls were very successful in taking the Brahma cattle influence out of a lot of cattle ...
One thing I think you guys are all over the country an what works in CANADA doesn't work in Ne. because of difference in the country an how handled ...Some one was blasting the earlier French cattle , well there memory on small testicles is different than mine ...I thought there biggest problem was their back legs an particularly the hocks an weak ankles ... The French cattle I liked then were AVIGNON,AGILON , BRAMARD AN PROABLY , DESSAUNY . sORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING AN THERE MIGHT BE OTHERS SIRES i DIDN'T REMEMBER NOW ....But those French bulls were very successful in taking the Brahma cattle influence out of a lot of cattle ...
Freddy
Well-known member
Forgot to say I am a big supporter of Show Stopper 95 for his pick of WYO wIND as the greatest sire, Firewater has a few more years needed to be used by more people before he is a great sire . So far he has just been doing very well in the show's an siring heifers that they touch the photo's up an make them look pretty good ..
CAB
Well-known member
Super SAM!!!
It is very difficult to say which bull was or is the "best" bull since the best likely was not as well promoted as some of the more popular bulls. I think it is more appropriate to talk about the more influential bulls and herds that made the breed what it is today.
The foundation of the bred is the Mexican fullbloods brought into Texas by people like the Michaelis family. With out this stockman Charolais would have been brought over in the 1960's instead of the 1940's.
The most influential fullblood bull via the Litton's was FWT Bar 951. This bull was used to put the Charolais breed mainstream particularly outside Texas.
Besides the Full French bulls mentioned some had incredible influence in the commerical industry and show ring:
Belphagor (Bingo) This bull has a half a million recorded/registered calves and counting. A ranch in montana still linebreeds to him.
Carnival- ABS sold semen on this bull for years and he was used to good effect to produce the Polled Paul lines among many others.
Caid-The most framey and "modern" in confirmation of all the French imports. He is well represented in Hamms' pedigrees.
Cadet Roussell- A spread bull for his day did wel on the C to c tests.
Abraham- Jim Chatney and friends cleaned the French out of this bloodline so much so that the French came to Canada to buy cattle back. Very good cattle
Ali Baba Bramard- A great all around bull along with Ailgon and Alger fairly easy calving
Cyrano 32D- Still influential through the Hank line in Canada and Australia.
Some domestic bulls from the recent past: (major impact on all domestic herds)
FZ Mighty MAC 828 and his son BCR Polled Unlimited
BR DUKE 261
Spain's Quality Poll 781 (ancestor of BR 261)
LHD MR Perfect (include LHD Cigar)
A couple of bulls that dominated the show ring in the early ,80s just like Fire on the Water is right now-but sank with out a trace in the commericial world:
Poker King Junior GV 18G
Hannibal BM (Full French)
Full french cattle are good cattle but they had some problems that had to be dealt with before they could be exploited. We used progeny testing to get rid of cow killers and genetic defect carriers. Poor reproductive performance was also culled out. Our best cattle were half to 3/4 French purebreds. The French cattle gave use better growth, muscle, and disposition. The last thing can not be over emphasized. The Brahma based American purebreds had disposition problems that the French cattle did not have and the resultant French calves were a big improvement. Today's North American purebreds are good enough to beat the French on progeny tests in Northern Europe for growth, calving, and fertility. The only thing the French have left is lean carcass production via more muscle.
The foundation of the bred is the Mexican fullbloods brought into Texas by people like the Michaelis family. With out this stockman Charolais would have been brought over in the 1960's instead of the 1940's.
The most influential fullblood bull via the Litton's was FWT Bar 951. This bull was used to put the Charolais breed mainstream particularly outside Texas.
Besides the Full French bulls mentioned some had incredible influence in the commerical industry and show ring:
Belphagor (Bingo) This bull has a half a million recorded/registered calves and counting. A ranch in montana still linebreeds to him.
Carnival- ABS sold semen on this bull for years and he was used to good effect to produce the Polled Paul lines among many others.
Caid-The most framey and "modern" in confirmation of all the French imports. He is well represented in Hamms' pedigrees.
Cadet Roussell- A spread bull for his day did wel on the C to c tests.
Abraham- Jim Chatney and friends cleaned the French out of this bloodline so much so that the French came to Canada to buy cattle back. Very good cattle
Ali Baba Bramard- A great all around bull along with Ailgon and Alger fairly easy calving
Cyrano 32D- Still influential through the Hank line in Canada and Australia.
Some domestic bulls from the recent past: (major impact on all domestic herds)
FZ Mighty MAC 828 and his son BCR Polled Unlimited
BR DUKE 261
Spain's Quality Poll 781 (ancestor of BR 261)
LHD MR Perfect (include LHD Cigar)
A couple of bulls that dominated the show ring in the early ,80s just like Fire on the Water is right now-but sank with out a trace in the commericial world:
Poker King Junior GV 18G
Hannibal BM (Full French)
Full french cattle are good cattle but they had some problems that had to be dealt with before they could be exploited. We used progeny testing to get rid of cow killers and genetic defect carriers. Poor reproductive performance was also culled out. Our best cattle were half to 3/4 French purebreds. The French cattle gave use better growth, muscle, and disposition. The last thing can not be over emphasized. The Brahma based American purebreds had disposition problems that the French cattle did not have and the resultant French calves were a big improvement. Today's North American purebreds are good enough to beat the French on progeny tests in Northern Europe for growth, calving, and fertility. The only thing the French have left is lean carcass production via more muscle.
From my experience If your looking to use char sires on a set of cows to get char influenced club calf momma's purebred bulls are the best way to go. Sires such as Firewater, Freedom, Wy Wind, Alliance, Hoo Doo genetics and possibly Bluegrass will work very well as they produce daughters that are moderate framed, easy fleshing, nice phenotype with good udders. Take daughters of these bulls and mate with clubbie sires such as Heatwave and you'll have a pretty stout set of calves.
If you're wanting char influenced steers it's best to use one of the char clubbie sires that is already crossed up. Sires such as Solid Gold, Milk Man, Alias(watch structure) will work well. Steers out of these sires have shown well both slicked and haired.
If you're wanting char influenced steers it's best to use one of the char clubbie sires that is already crossed up. Sires such as Solid Gold, Milk Man, Alias(watch structure) will work well. Steers out of these sires have shown well both slicked and haired.
Freddy
Well-known member
One other thing after reading the other comments, I maybe came down to hard on Charbrays , but these cattle in the south have made a big impact for the region they are used in, an I think the region your in will influence some of your choices... The French cattle are not handled like our bulls back here an their market I think is also different ....Another old herd that had great cattle that influenced our cattle is the 4 T RANCH ....
CAB
Well-known member
the best said:
Do you have an interest in the bull or have you just had a lot of great calves out of him?
Bulldaddy
Well-known member
Back to Fire water, does anyone know what his frame score is? Needs to be fairly moderate to work for me. Most of my cows fairly big.
I would contact the Thomas family directly so you can get his frame score directly: http://www.thomasranchcattle.com/Contact%20Us.htm. If you want to down size frame Hamms Mogo may be worth a try. I would talk to the owners on which of their bulls would work for you as they are getting involved in the clubby deal: http://barjcharolaisfarm.com/?page_id=2 Another frame reducer is MXS Vermillion: http://www.buyagro.com/voegeli/vermillion.htm
Freddy
Well-known member
If your looking for Charolais that have some of the qualities that the show steer people want you proably don't wan't Firewater or many of those Canadian sires because there too big ...The Firewater heifers are winning the purebred shows an the Charolais show cattle will be 6-7 frame or more ... The show cattle people want big cattle in the Charolais , Angus ,an most other breeds .. These breed Assoc. dont have a lot to say good about the show steer business , an concentrate more on the big growth cattle or carcass cattle an have no real interest in the show steer business ...The Thomas Ranches in Texas hsve a bull that produced some steers an show steer sires like Troubador ...His name is LEAD ON , there is a bull called CHUNKY MONKEY that has done well also , I think KROUPA in S.D. sells that ....DOUGHBOY -is a sire that I will have1-2 calves this spring an he is sired by B/T SMART CHOICE an was owned by CAMP COOLEY in Texas ....The HOODOO cattle have proably caused the most interest so far , We have a half HOODOO sire called B/T ROBINHOOD who has made us some moderate ,heavy boned females that milk good an have nice udders ...We have a FULL HOODOO BULL that we used the last two years ,have a yearling son this year an used him on my Charolais heifers this year .......... In my opinion you need a Charolais bull that has a proven record calving heifers out of him with not much trouble ,Most of the bulls used on cows will have bigger calves an also more frame an growth... Make sure you have accuratte proof of calving heifers an I try not to use a bull with B.W. EPD HIGHER than a +2 on my cows an prefer a 0. or - EPD on my heifers .... I used Firewater last fall an I think he is a little over +2..... I bought a bull once as a yearling that was -4. an when I started getting calves he was a +4. Kris Black Hreford Ranch in Oklahoma has some Hoodoo bulls an very experienced in club calf business ...
i have had lots of good females and bulls out of firewater and have not had a throw away calf yet.and he will moderate the frame size too. yes wy wind is a good bull. but i don't think his calves even come close to being as powerful as firewater calves. Ham Mogo i liked him as a yearling but i just seen him in kansas city as a 3 year old. lets just say they should have never brought him back out to show it hurt that bull a lot.
Intersting conversation for sure- Mark you sure know your pedigrees. At Sandan's sale last spring the Vermilion calves weren't great structurally - haven't seen many but just what I saw. I have heard of the Rawe guys thanks for the link. My neighbour has bought some bulls from them. Most horned from what I remeber and a bit snappy (ranch bulls). They were not small bw either.
I farm near St.Paul. It looks like Firewater was sold in Canada to a group of breeders in *gribition. So we will see some more eventually.have to agree about Wind - lots of good progeny over the years. Too much in the US pedigrees already though. Like Dempsey in Canada several years ago.
I farm near St.Paul. It looks like Firewater was sold in Canada to a group of breeders in *gribition. So we will see some more eventually.have to agree about Wind - lots of good progeny over the years. Too much in the US pedigrees already though. Like Dempsey in Canada several years ago.
SJC,
John Rawes is the biggest Charolais breeder in Canada and he has plenty of high performance (and high birth weight) bulls but he also has some unique calving ease lines that are complete outcross to most American domestic Charolais. They have a little WCR, Baldridge and Polled Paul in their pedigrees but that is way back. Last year they were selling two year olds with a Birth Weight EPD of -2.0 or less and a REA/CWT of 1.20 or better. We used one of their yearling calving ease bulls (-2.9 BWT EPD) on a group of big high performance heifers and they calved easy with all 20 calves dropped in a 10 LB range (90 to 100 LB)with one easy pull because we didn't want to check the cows later. We later sold the bull for more than we paid for him after showing the calves to a buyer. Rawes doesn't show or promote heavily but they have a sale average most would envy and have lower costs due to their lower profile lets them survive when other fail.
John Rawes is the biggest Charolais breeder in Canada and he has plenty of high performance (and high birth weight) bulls but he also has some unique calving ease lines that are complete outcross to most American domestic Charolais. They have a little WCR, Baldridge and Polled Paul in their pedigrees but that is way back. Last year they were selling two year olds with a Birth Weight EPD of -2.0 or less and a REA/CWT of 1.20 or better. We used one of their yearling calving ease bulls (-2.9 BWT EPD) on a group of big high performance heifers and they calved easy with all 20 calves dropped in a 10 LB range (90 to 100 LB)with one easy pull because we didn't want to check the cows later. We later sold the bull for more than we paid for him after showing the calves to a buyer. Rawes doesn't show or promote heavily but they have a sale average most would envy and have lower costs due to their lower profile lets them survive when other fail.
For what it is worth, I did the pictures and video of Firewater. I still think this is one of the best bulls I have ever pictured myself, for any breed. I would describe him as moderate framed, medium bodied, sure not racy and not a pud. He is really nice throuch his front and the way his neck hooks into his shoulders, which to me allows him to be very athletic. It was mentioned that he looked "nervous" in the video. I do that intentionally in our videos because to me it shows that the cattle are athletic and functional and have plenty of flexibility to their frame. He is certainly not wild as we did the still pictures in the yard and it took about two minutes, he stood perfectly still. This is actually very unusual for any bull being in a bull stud, their testosteron is usually very high.
As a side note, I have bought calves at Troy's for three years in a row, and every one of them was a Firewater, and not only did they show well, but have transitioned into really nice cows, beautiful uddered and easy keeping.
I don't think he is going to add frame for anyone, he is not that kind of bull. I simply love the bull, and I do believe he could work for club calves. As a side note, I am pretty sure he is being handled by Genex now as a distributor.
Mark Sneed
As a side note, I have bought calves at Troy's for three years in a row, and every one of them was a Firewater, and not only did they show well, but have transitioned into really nice cows, beautiful uddered and easy keeping.
I don't think he is going to add frame for anyone, he is not that kind of bull. I simply love the bull, and I do believe he could work for club calves. As a side note, I am pretty sure he is being handled by Genex now as a distributor.
Mark Sneed
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