Firewater

[RyanChandler]

If all Charolais are supposed to be terminal then where do more Charolais cattle come from? Do they not have moms? Are no cows charlolais? perhaps chars come from your shorthorn supermoms. It's clear that firewater has only been sampled by a ffew people and no success stories or high sale averages have ever come from this bull. Say what you want about the bull but those who use him do so knowing he is nothing other than a white angus....extreme sarcam implied.

Charolais bulls come from purebred herds obviously.  Their dams should be functional 'enough.'  Maternal and Terminal characteristics are antagonistic by nature therefore in order to produce a terminal sire, clearly his dam will be lacking in overall maternal quality.  Firewater is another classic example of the Charolais breed moving in the wrong direction.  A direction where they try to moderate  ??? and be the jack of all trades.  Same thing SAV is doing w/ their angus.  Making them more terminal as to compete w/ the real terminal continental breeds.  These two breeds have done nothing but meet in the middle.  You're left w/ larger harder doing Angus and a smaller softer made Charolais.  Neither of which are specialized in either field that they once hung their hat on.  Angus mature cow size has increased (NOW ABOVE CHAR  ) and their bw have drastically increased as well. Not an advancement, but a tradeoff! I could likely convince some grey beards at the sale barn that the sun is green before I could convince them that there are now Registered Angus bulls that carry +100lb bws.  Angus was once synonimous w/ low birth weight. Not hardly! And then you see Char bulls like Bluegrass w/ 60 somethin lb bws.  This is no advancement in the breed!  They are attaining low bw AT THE EXPENSE of severely reduced WW and YW! 

The people that are using this bull are show cattle oriented or seedstock traders.  This bull's offspring will not pound the scales (relative to what the breed has to offer) nor does he have the internal capacity to produce females w/ enough rib to be sustainable on forage.

 

[Bradenh]

X bar I'm 17 years old and that's my weakness when it comes to arguing on this site: but I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you I'm old enough to know that your full of crap

You've referred to him as unsound, You've referred to him as course fronted, Fine boned, yet shallow gutted with no capacity

Now from what I've learned in the industry is that the value of something is decided no other way than by what it's worth to the buyer. With that said why is he the dominant Charolais bull while the others you post are unheard of? If he was that bad and all you say is true then why is he the best Charolais bull going? Why are his daughters winning and high-selling, and why are his sons so heavily valued, or heck if he's such a piece of trash why was he, himself named so many awards as a show bull, and all those semen units selling?

Throw your numbers out the window, the proof is in the pudding, his goal as a bull is to put calves on the ground an his are the best, I have nothing to do with him (besides my heifer I show is out of him, feel free to look her up on page 2) but I'm irritated that you find it so nessicery to bash the bull when all he does is win! Hello son, get with it here, until you raise one better you have no room to rip him or google search angus bulls to compare him too,

Fire water: from what I know, I realize I'm not old but what I know is I have seen offspring of his (that's what matters) and I personally feed one twice a day, when it comes to marketable calves that will bring in the money, he is the Charolais bull you are looking for, when it comes to style, eye appeal and any aesthetic value he will help. Plus if you insist on throwing numbers in there I wish you could see the calf I have in the barn and how she grows, she's functional, correct, and looks nothing like an angus

*disclaimer: my information is false I'm sure, I didn't google any angus bulls or make any wild statements off of pictures or videos, I use my eyes and am confident enough in what I see to call it how I see it

 

[Bradenh]

Firewater daughter born April 13, 2012

 

[sizzler14]

I wouldnt compare Charolais to Angus nor would I compare a Shorthorn to a Charolais. As far as I am concerned, there is not One shorthorn bull going now (Currently alive) that is as dominant and making as much money as Firewater. And last time I checked, the dollar value in your bank account is what really makes an animal. Cattle is a business. Period. and Firewater is making Money and he has helped revitalize and reshape the Charolais Industry. Very few Charolais that I have seen are poor structured.

 

[frostback]

Another daughter, love the udder.

 

[RyanChandler]

Likewise, the heifer you posted is shallow bodied too. What a coincidence. The bull does not cover his tracks. That's the only comment I've made as far as soundness. I never mentioned course fronted or fine boned so that's you're own rambling.  On the other hand, I will say he's choke necked and carries far too much bone for his frame. He might be the 'best' in your little dress up play land, but in the real world, performance numbers dictate an animal's viability.  In the real world, this moderate  (lol) bull is middle of the road.  

 

[HF CHARS]

not gonna get into this,,,,,,but firewater scanned over a 18 inch eye with above breed avg marbling,,,,thats what I look for in a terminal cross sire

 

[Bradenh]

Likewise, the heifer you posted is shallow bodied too. What a coincidence. The bull does not cover his tracks. That's the only comment I've made as far as soundness. I never mentioned course fronted or fine boned so that's you're own rambling.  On the other hand, I will say he's choke necked and carries far too much bone for his frame. He might be the 'best' in your little dress up play land, but in the real world, performance numbers dictate an animal's viability.  In the real world, this moderate  (lol) bull is middle of the road.  

[quote author=-XBAR- link=topic=44137.msg371635#msg371635 date=1360981751

Until you raise a Charolais or feed one that's better ill take your word for what it's worth, nothing  (thumbsup)

You said you didn't think he could get his head up, or something like that,.. I figure a cattle guru such as yourself would realize that relates to you saying he's too coarse to get his head up higher

I do believe other members are agreeing with my dress up play land when I say he will be the bull to pay the bills

Also I think I'll bet and say we run a couple more cows than you  ;D, and I am aware of what works on those sort of cattle, and for what it's worth we run a firewater son as one of our commercial bulls, but this isn't a commercial producer forum and ill save that for another day

Welcome to steerplanet: it's a show cattle forum and the original poster wanted to know what type of calves the bull threw, you read that as your que to rip the bull, when you can't produce anything any better

 

[sizzler14]

Isnt That cow owned by Vickland and produced a $55,000 steer? If she isnt owned by Vicklands, she looks a lot like theres!

 

[Bradenh]

^ your crazy? No way a cow that makes a 55k steer is protfitable! That's not real money, it's imaginary dress up land money  (clapping)  (lol) <beer> <beer>  <beer>

 

[sizzler14]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

 

[RyanChandler]

If you want to make it personal, the one I feed is light years better than the one you feed- M6 Led Weight 609.  Imagine that, a $5k bull that puts twice as much volume in his calves as the aforementioned.  

 

[HF CHARS]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

also saw some really powerful commercial purebred bulls sell out of her,,,good enough to do it on both sides of the aisle

 

[Mark H]

Firewater is a great herdsire and right now he is Charolaisbasically a do ires out of a 16 year old gold star dameverything right bull.. He sires good growth, muscle, and can put out a good female. Oh by the way he is the most successful sire of show ring winners in the United states for the breed.  You have to see a bull like firewater in the same pasture or AI stud as some of the Angus bulls mentioned here.  The difference besides color would be readily apparent to even a novice.
The bull presented as being more the prototypical Charolais is a bull called Pleasant Dawn Marshall.  He is a moderate, calving ease bull with good muscle.  he is not a terminal bull as the Pleasant Dawn herd for many years emphasized calving ease and maternal.  The Pleasant awn bull sale is coming up and they are selling one of their senior herd sires out of a sill producing 16 year old gold star dam check him out at: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/pd_catalogue_web?mode=window.  Note the EPDs on that bull.
Firewater reminds me of the old style Full french bulls I used long ago since they were smaller farmed, muscled, and easy fleshing just with out the fertility and calving problems.  In fact some guy is used Firewater on some full french cows.  Check out the results: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/northern_impact?mode=window. Note the lots 15, 19 and 20-25  Do you think he worked here?
If you are looking for power use SVY Pligrim from Genex.  If you want to buy a bull look at what this guy has: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/buffalo_lake_2013?mode=window
Here is proven calving ease Full French bull (Maple Leaf Pinay)  Lot #1so you can put some muscle on with calving ease: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/maple_leaf_cat_web
One thing to add the take home is that maternal capability and terminal capability are not always in conflict.  You get into problems when selecting for extreme muscle such you get in the double muscled breeds North American cattle herds are nowhere near this limitation.

 

[Mark H]

Respnse above was garbled here is wha it should say:

Firewater is a great herdsire and right now he is a do every thing right bull. He sires good growth, muscle, and can put out a good female. Oh by the way he is the most successful sire of show ring winners in the United states for the breed.  You have to see a bull like firewater in the same pasture or AI stud as some of the Angus bulls mentioned here.  The difference besides color would be readily apparent to even a novice.
The bull presented as being more the prototypical Charolais is a bull called Pleasant Dawn Marshall.  He is a moderate, calving ease bull with good muscle.  he is not a terminal bull as the Pleasant Dawn herd for many years emphasized calving ease and maternal.  The Pleasant awn bull sale is coming up and they are selling one of their senior herd sires out of a sill producing 16 year old gold star dam check him out at: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/pd_catalogue_web?mode=window.  Note the EPDs on that bull.
Firewater reminds me of the old style Full french bulls I used long ago since they were smaller farmed, muscled, and easy fleshing just with out the fertility and calving problems.  In fact some guy is used Firewater on some full french cows.  Check out the results: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/northern_impact?mode=window. Note the lots 15, 19 and 20-25  Do you think he worked here?
If you are looking for mOre  power use SVY Pligrim from Genex.  If you want to buy a bull look at what this guy has: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/buffalo_lake_2013?mode=window
Here is proven calving ease Full French bull (Maple Leaf Pinay)  Lot #1 so you can put some muscle on with calving ease: http://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/maple_leaf_cat_web
One thing to add the take home is that maternal capability and terminal capability are not always in conflict.  You get into problems when selecting for extreme muscle such you get in the double muscled breeds North American cattle herds are nowhere near this limitation.

 

[Bradenh]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

also saw some really powerful commercial purebred bulls sell out of her,,,good enough to do it on both sides of the aisle

No it's a conspiracy! Fire water doesn't have enough character to do that?   (thumbsup)

X bar I'm sure she is, that's why you'll air it out there and take her to a show, I wasn't trying to get in a pissing contest with you, simply call your bluff and state what I think about the bull and elaborate on why I feel that way

It's not personal, as long as I've got the testicular fortitude to post a picture of something I have before I bash others.., then there's nothing personal about it

 

[DakotaCow]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

Yup, it went to graderts from Iowa for 51 grand. Had champion char and reserve steer at Iowa state fair. Didn't Thomas's sell a 62 thousand dollar BIM steer out of a no good flat made, poor structured, piss poor uddered, hound gutted, straight shouldered firewater daughter who was middle of the road and also probably couldn't pick her head up? Lol sorry but I am in a good mood tonight.

 

[RyanChandler]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

also saw some really powerful commercial purebred bulls sell out of her,,,good enough to do it on both sides of the aisle

No it's a conspiracy! Fire water doesn't have enough character to do that?   (thumbsup)

X bar I'm sure she is, that's why you'll air it out there and take her to a show, I wasn't trying to get in a pissing contest with you, simply call your bluff and state what I think about the bull and elaborate on why I feel that way

It's not personal, as long as I've got the testicular fortitude to post a picture of something I have before I bash others.., then there's nothing personal about it

I've posted plenty of pics, do a search. 609 is a bull.

 

[Bradenh]

Couldn't find it, can you post a link? So we can compare him with firewater, and how about a sale sheet and some pictures of notable offspring? Or random ones, just some random calves in the yard on a halter, just for a credibility reference

 

[HF CHARS]

I am pretty sure that Vicklands sold it for a large $ Not sure how much but it was 5 figures. Went to Guyer and then he resold it for 55k. It was sired by Monopoly! If it is the same cow. That cow has sired more than one in 5 figures too!

Yup, it went to graderts from Iowa for 51 grand. Had champion char and reserve steer at Iowa state fair. Didn't Thomas's sell a 62 thousand dollar BIM steer out of a no good flat made, poor structured, piss poor uddered, hound gutted, straight shouldered firewater daughter who was middle of the road and also probably couldn't pick her head up? Lol sorry but I am in a good mood tonight.

hey now,,,I raised that flat,straight,no good witch!!! (lol)