Fit v. Blow

[NHR]

Oh and by the way, to the earlier poster who stated that paint was illegal at national shows, that's only true with some breeds (Angus, Limi, maybe a couple of others).

I was referring to the junior division at major shows. Painting is illegal per the rules.

I know that in the Shorthorn open show world painting is legal up to the hock.

 

[Jill]

Painting the legs isn't illegal at the Maine jr. show, and it isn't illegal at the American Royal Jr. Show.  I know the Angus have outlawed painting, but that doesn't make it illegal everywhere else only for that breed.

 

[knabe]

jill, can you paint the legs of breeding stock at the Maine jr. show?  i can understand why painting would be ok for steers.

i think it is extremely important that breeding stock not be discouraged from exhibiting animals with white on their legs, particlualry if they are breeding up.  perhaps this requires a different class to introduce rare genetics into the breed and would encourage people to show these animals rather than wait till they lose their socks.  this type of animal doesn't really fit into a category i've seen yet.  this animal's market is not really the commercial cattleman, but for other pb breeders to consider to incorporate, or is there already enough diversity in the maine breed?  i understand the ones that win are the most complete, but how would you reward the "long thinker"?  i guess i'm being a little self serving here.

 

[knabe]

on another thread, this is a good reason for fitted shows

The one thing i have seen  is the more hands on the better off
you will be in the end. This is the reason I'm for the fit or the
hair shows.

fitting sort of "guarantees" more handling.

 

[NHR]

Knabe - Painting is usually done on the legs to fill in to give a look of larger bone. It usually is not done to hide color. When we fit at open show we use glue to pull the hair into place and then use white leg builder paint to fill the voids and provide a fuller look, then we use whatever color paint to match the original color. Some folks do use it to cover tinted hair but first priority is to provide a fuller look which resembles heavier bone.

I was referring to Texas Majors, sorry. We have not ventured to Denver or Louisville. I thought Denver had a rule about only the exhibitor could fit the animal in the junior show. Anybody know for sure?

 

[knabe]

thanks for the clarification NHR, man, i've really been out of this a long time.  we used to do the same thing back then.  i guess i was asking about painting white black because i saw a few really bad attempts to cover it up at two recent shows, one time in the flank, the other on the legs with a couple other attempts i don't remember.  it could have been a disaster from a cleaning attempt, don't know.  one attempt was at the western bonanza and they were not disqualified, and i  don't know the rules there.

 

[NHR]

No problem Knabe.

Also this is from the National Western (Denver) rule book on Junior Heifers:

5. Fitting of Animal. Participant only, in whose name the animal is owned and accepted
entry is acknowledged, will be allowed to wash, groom and fit the animal after arriving on
National Western Stock Show grounds. Verbal assistance only will be allowed during these
times from Family members, Ag Leaders and fellow participants. Anyone found in violation
of this rule may be subject to immediate disqualification without recourse.

 

[NHR]

From the Ft Worth Premium book: Page 162

11. Artificial Coloring. Any junior steer or heifer entry which, when rubbed with a white cloth
or glove shows residual evidence of artificial coloring, will be disqualified, with the exception of dressing
on hoofs.

 

[Okie Boy]

I guess I don't like full fit shows. What's wrong with the bone you were born with? I understand making your animal look as good as it NATURALLY is , but adding to? Blow and show allows you to grow hair and have an advantage over those of us without the genetics to do so, you can still clip a new shape onto your animal. I guess the biggest difference I see ( in my limited experience ) is in gluing legs. Don't like that. Or perhaps I don't know diddly about fitting.

 

[knabe]

NHR

allowed to wash, groom and fit the animal

does this mean show them how to hold the animal for showing, or is this implied with fitting?

i was hoping the bone issue would come up.  some people think more bone equals less marbling.  Judges?  so maybe not a real advantage, but a disadvantage?  i agree it looks better boned, to match usually the body, but sometimes it's just too much.  at this point, i'm amazed people don't have fake hooves to make them look bigger as well.

 

[NHR]

Knabe,

It means nobody can touch the animal except for the exhibitor. This is the rule, not for sure how enforced it is.

As for bone and marbling, I dont know the affects.

I know that bone is considered in heifers to show ruggedness to perform in the pasture and support the weight when heavy bred.

 

[j3cattleco]

The only shows at denver where the juniors are forced to do it all is the junior market shows.  Other than that it is open to the world.  we show there every year and normally take juniors with us showing heifers.  I had a buddy once warned for priming a spray bottle while pointing it at his daughters steer.  They almost kicked him out for that, but in the heifers it's a different deal.

 

[NHR]

The rule that I posted states it is for all junior animals including beef heifers. I guess they dont enforce it on the heifers.

 

[OH Breeder]

I am for fit shows.
I was one of those kdis that did it all by myself. I watched and went to larger shows and went "back stage" prior to shows so I could learn more. I made ALOT of mistakes the first time out but fitting is half the fun. Junior or open, by the time I was a teenager, i was helping younger kids at the county level with fitting. Now, I am old and stale and had to start all over. I think it is a skill that every exhibitor should try at least once. I think if you really try and work hard at it you become better. Some kids weren't willing to work at it when i showed. My neice and nephews all are given a pair of clippers and told to go to town. We use the hairest ones and practice practice. I encourage anyone wanting to get better at to get the videos to help.
just my 2Cents.

just look at it this way, would you watch Miss America if she came out in her flannel pajamas and had her hair pulled back with no make up.

 

[NHR]

Like I stated before I am all for fitting.

I think exhibitors who do their own fitting learn their animal strengths and weaknesses. This will help them when it comes to breeding decisions and culling decisions. Its amazing when fitting you start breaking down the animal and might think to yourself " I wish this heifer wasnt so steep off the front shoulder" or "How can I make this heifer more level". Once you begin to analyze animals in this way it sets in your mind that when it comes time to breeding this heifer these are areas where I need to improve her. It is a teaching method.

 

[DLD]

We've hashed and rehashed the color deal many times before, here and on other boards. Bottom line is each show and sometimes each division (different breeds, junior, steers, heifers, open, futurities, etc...) within a show may have different rules regarding who can fit and what they may do. As has been pointed out here already, paint is not neccesarily (in fact, seldom) being used to change natural coloring, but to build and fill out the existing hair, and to cover the white left behind by strong adhesives. As the original poster said, there are no right or wrong answers to this, just opinions.

Speaking of opinions, I will say this much - having grown acustomed to being able to use paint, I really don't like fitting legs without it. Just personal opinion, and it probably has something to do with the hair quality on the particular Angus and Limousin cattle I usually help with, but I have a really hard time making a black leg look the way I like it using only the lighter adhesives that leave no white behind.

 

[shortyisqueen]

i was hoping the bone issue would come up.  some people think more bone equals less marbling.  Judges?  so maybe not a real advantage, but a disadvantage?  i agree it looks better boned, to match usually the body, but sometimes it's just too much.  at this point, i'm amazed people don't have fake hooves to make them look bigger as well.

I can see you've been talking to my mom 

I don't think its a  coincidence that some of the breeds with the highest marbling are dairy breeds - breeds which have the finest bone plate. While  a certain amount of bone is needed to put up with the daily 'wear and tear' on the structure of a beef animal, we are getting to the point where we are breeding more and more bone in, and adding more hair on to make bone plate look even bigger...and we don't know why!! Other  than aesthetics, what do you folks believe that we are  achieving by selecting for a large bone plate? Does the practice of fitting (albiet it is good fun and it looks great) have an correlation to what we should be selecting for in the real world?

Bone plate and fertility go hand in hand. Old ranchers used to cull heifers based on too large a bone plate -  they called them 'course' and deemed they would be infertile. Fertility, I would say, also links to marbling as a high amount of internal fat would lead to a heifer more easily getting pregnant every year. Thus leading to the assumption that the larger the bone plate, the lower the marbling score. As a point of interest, I would love  to do a study on heifers deemed to have a fine bone plate, an  average bone plate, and heifers with a  large bone plate (show heifers???), by ultrasounding them for marbling and then seeing how many caught to their service  - first cycle, second cycle, etc...for a number of years...

I'm not saying to select for a frail bone plate, but at what point is too much bone...well, just too much bone?

 

[shortyisqueen]

Bone is not very tasty either... unless you make a lot of soup. 

 

[Jill]

Our county livestock ass'n hosted an ultrasound seminar and it was extremely interesting.  According to this gentleman, marbling is the most heretable trait and in his opinion was one of the very highest things that should be in the selection process when looking at a bull, funny that most people don't even list a marbling score when selling a bull.

 

[Show Dad]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I am going to put together a proposal that will include many of the points raised here.

It is my opinion that our spring show stay a fit show minus paint and twine. Then our county fair in August is to be a blow and show. I think we need to keep the fitting because there are still some big Jr shows that are fit shows in our neck of the woods and this will give all a place to learn.

Thanks again.