Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!

[JSchroeder]

Nobody would ban grooming equipment because some kids can afford it & I just can't see banning pro-fitters because a few can't afford them.

Just to be clear, nobody is saying they are deterimental to shows because people can't afford them.  They're deterimental to the show ring because they do the work kids should be doing.

 

[TJ]

I must admit that I have been on both sides of the fence on this topic. Bottom line...The junior program has become an immensely competitive sport. It is the folks with the most resources (money, professional associates, etc.) along with all the hard work that usually go out and become competitive.

My concern is for the kids that feel defeated and become disenchanted because they do not have these resources. Sometimes it almost seems like a High School varsity football player has to go up against a professional NFL player and I'm not  sure that is a good thing.

I do not think it is always children competing against other children. Sometimes it children competing against grown adults, and that bother me a bit.

Glad that you mentioned football & feeling disenchanted/defeated, because even in the world of HS varsity football, it isn't always a level playing field...  

Private schools often recruit players, while most public schools aren't supposed to.  Of course, the private ones aren't supposed to either, but... sometimes parents get offered jobs, etc.

Some schools are able to hire better coaches than other schools.  

Some schools have larger athletic budgets & they have bigger weight rooms, better practice fields, etc.  

Some schools send all their kids to camps.  Others can not afford to do that.  

Some players take steriods & do other "illegal" things to create an advantage.  

If you think that showring judges are biased, well HS refs can be biased too.  

Some schools even hire outside "consultants", often college coaches, to help develop schemes, plays, etc.  Some schools don't have the contacts or $ to do that.

As you can see, right or wrong, HS sports & youth show cattle projects have a whole lot in common.  Neither is 100% fair.  Both leave kids feeling disenchanted & defeated.  Both have problems with cheating & illegal activities & those things SHOULD NOT be tolerrated at all, if someone is caught.  However, banning fitters is a lot like banning summer camps for football players... it wont solve a thing, IMHO.  Some HS football players will become disenchanted & give up.  But that doesn't mean that they wont find something else that they are very good at.  Not everyone can be a successful football player & not everyone can be a successful show person, but everybody can be good at something.  If winning or competing is all that matters to a person, then that person needs to find a niche where they can be competitive. 

IMHO, you can keep fitters from touching the calves at a show, but you will never stop them from being involved, at least somewhat.  IMHO, banning them will not help & it may actually hurt some kids by preventing kids from learning fitting skills & therefore can actually increase the number of kids who become disenchanted.  And IMHO, nothing will disenchant a kid more than a kid who works their butt off with a calf all year long, but then shows up for the show, does a butcher clip/fit job on the calf & then gets burried because they don't have the skills to clip/fit... while another kid rarely works with their calf, but they can fit & they had a pro-fitter clip the calf a few days before the show & that kid wins the show.         

If you really want to help & you don't want to slick sheer, then hire a pro-fitter to put on a clinic in your area & teach the kids how to do it themselves.  At least that way you will be helping those kids who are at a disadvantage.  But, don't ban fitters... trust me, it wont help.     

 

[TJ]

Nobody would ban grooming equipment because some kids can afford it & I just can't see banning pro-fitters because a few can't afford them.

Just to be clear, nobody is saying they are deterimental to shows because people can't afford them.  They're deterimental to the show ring because they do the work kids should be doing.

You are correct that kids should be working & doing as much work as they are capable to do.  But, let's be honest...  many 1st year, 4th graders, may actually "outwork" everyone else, but they just don't have the "fitting skills" to compete with an 18 year old who has been showing all their life & who is a 4H member, because they didn't join the  FFA.  Also, just because a kid fits their own steer or has a family member help them or a youth leader help them at the show, doesn't mean that did anything at home.  Who is to say that the family member or youth leader isn't a pro-fitter?  Who is to say that a pro-fitter didn't clip before they left for the show?  Who is to say that their parents didn't feed & groom the calves at home?  You see, just by banning pro-fitters at the show, you still aren't making the kids work.  As Shortyjock mentioned, with enough work at home, you can basically blow & go & beat a lot of calves that are fitted.  But who is to say that the kids are doing all that work at home?   

IMHO, like everything else it all boils down to the parents.  If the parents instill a strong work ethic in their kids, the kids will work.  If the parents teach the kids not to cheat, the chances are very great that the kids will not cheat.  However, if the parents want to hire it all done... as much as possible will be done BEFORE the calf ever attends a show & at home is where shows are won or lost, IMHO.  Banning a pro-fitter will not prevent that stuff from happening at home or make a kid work any harder.  I'm sorry, but it is true.     

 

[rmbcows]

WHO's the new picture of, what bull?
[/quote]


OH Breeder....  That's just a pic of our old herd bull.  He's no longer with us and I sure miss him... raised alot of good calves out of the old boy.  Thank goodness we still have lots of daughters!

 

[TJ]

Lots of good points brought up so far.

Bottom line is that there is virtually nothing you can do to eliminate professionals (jocks, whatever you want to call 'em).

If you think that allowing only the exhibitors to touch the calves at the show solves it, then keep your blinders on and be happy. Those top end steers at Denver have been clipped and fitted by professionals (often in the yards) immediately before they go up on the hill. Same is gonna go for any other show with similiar rules. Years ago, Tulsa allowed only exhibitors to fit, but other exhibitors could help - that was pretty lucrative for the junior exhibitors that were good fitters.

Slick shear? The same "professionals" are standing in the win photos and picturing the winners in their ads as the hair shows.

I'm also in favor of letting anyone fit. The exhibitors that want to do it will learn  from the "pros" and they'll pass it on to the younger ones that want to in the same way. Young people that want help and want to learn will find a way. There are plenty of people that know how to fit that are willing to help anyone that truly wants to learn, if they'll only ask for help.

I agree 100%

 

[JSchroeder]

But, let's be honest...  many 1st year, 4th graders, may actually "outwork" everyone else, but they just don't have the "fitting skills" to compete with an 18 year old who has been showing all their life & who is a 4H member, because they didn't join the  FFA

Why do you think that 4th grader should be able to step right in and compete with seniors in high school who have been fitting calves for a decade?

 

[OH Breeder]

I do get tired of people playing the disadvantage card. I was the youngest kid of 9 children. We DIDN'T have anything when I was a kid. ( I know cry me a river.... ) I took what came out of the barn that I have raised and broke. My parents are the age of most folks grandparents. If you want to compete you can, you just have to want it. MONEY or NOT. If you don't have any money, it doesnt cost anything to hitch a ride to a cattle show and spend time before the show starts and watch watch watch. I spent all summer working,so I could to buy my own show supplies etc. Lets face, there are some children that do not have it easy, but when I was them- it made me try harder. Bobby May use to sell at least two calves and still does in our county fair. Bobby and crew would come to the county fair and groom. Now, I never let that bother me, I just spent more time watching them and asking questions.
Life has been good to me. We have more advantages than I did as a kid. I spend most of my disposible income on the cattle." Like they say, we use to have money and now we show cattle." The cattle are a family project, who cares who is feeding and grooming, it takes a family to get it all done. The kids and I both help other exhibitors with our little knowledge when we can.

okay, I will step off my soap box.

ps,
they have a fitting clinic with a PROFESSIONAL fitter the first day of the fair for the kids of ALL ages. He works on both steers and heifers. Has the kids groom and judges them. They can then take that information and apply it that week to there own cattle.

 

[Show Dad]

I do get tired of people playing the disadvantage card.

Amen!

 

[TJ]

But, let's be honest...  many 1st year, 4th graders, may actually "outwork" everyone else, but they just don't have the "fitting skills" to compete with an 18 year old who has been showing all their life & who is a 4H member, because they didn't join the  FFA

Why do you think that 4th grader should be able to step right in and compete with seniors in high school who have been fitting calves for a decade?

I hate to answer a question with a question, but I think that your answer to my question will help me to better answer yours.

Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day? 

 

[shortyisqueen]

I think someone else may have mentioned this already, but I think that motivation is the ONLY resource you need. If you have that, you can make everything else happen.  I can remember my first 'big show' where I was competing against the kids of the 'high rollers.'  I was so scared and was SURE  I was going to be last! (to this day, it is the most memorable second place I have ever received). It was easy to see there were some phenomenal cattle, and  I wanted mine to look like that. Any kid  who is serious about being involved in showing cattle and being competitive at it will see it  that way - there is no short cut to winning and if you can look up the line and see why those cattle are winning and yours are not, you've made a step in the right direction. The kids who are disenchanted to need to realize they have some work to do (its go big or go home). Competition breeds quality. As for the kids who have  a fitter - if they are interested, they will learn to do what the fitter is doing, and if they are not interested, they may win this show...but they probably won't win the next one - or even be at it as soon as they can convince their parents they are finished with showing.

Frankly, I've  had it up to there with the "rules" that try to 'even the playing field.' My brother and I used to fit as a team when we got our steers ready for  4-H.  His last year in 4-H, I didn't go in 4-H as I had gone away to college. I came back up for showday, and since I was still young enough to compete, I helped him fit his steer. The steer won, some 4-H parents threw a fuss, and my brother was disqualified for the grooming award because I helped him (and I was quote on quote 'a professional fitter.') Nevermind he spent every night in the barn working very hard on that steer and the steer would have won if he walked into the ring without any glue or that he helped get all my cattle ready for Agribition the fall before that (does that make him qualify as a 'professional' fitter too?) The only people I ever hear talk about 'leveling the playing field' are the people that are standing at the bottom of the line and  and don't want to do the work  it takes to get to the top.

 

[OH Breeder]

I think someone else may have mentioned this already, but I think that motivation is the ONLY resource you need. If you have that, you can make everything else happen.  I can remember my first 'big show' where I was competing against the kids of the 'high rollers.'  I was so scared and was SURE  I was going to be last! (to this day, it is the most memorable second place I have ever received). It was easy to see there were some phenomenal cattle, and  I wanted mine to look like that. Any kid  who is serious about being involved in showing cattle and being competitive at it will see it  that way - there is no short cut to winning and if you can look up the line and see why those cattle are winning and yours are not, you've made a step in the right direction. The kids who are disenchanted to need to realize they have some work to do (its go big or go home). Competition breeds quality. As for the kids who have  a fitter - if they are interested, they will learn to do what the fitter is doing, and if they are not interested, they may win this show...but they probably won't win the next one - or even be at it as soon as they can convince their parents they are finished with showing.

Frankly, I've  had it up to there with the "rules" that try to 'even the playing field.' My brother and I used to fit as a team when we got our steers ready for  4-H.  His last year in 4-H, I didn't go in 4-H as I had gone away to college. I came back up for showday, and since I was still young enough to compete, I helped him fit his steer. The steer won, some 4-H parents threw a fuss, and my brother was disqualified for the grooming award because I helped him (and I was quote on quote 'a professional fitter.') Nevermind he spent every night in the barn working very hard on that steer and the steer would have won if he walked into the ring without any glue or that he helped get all my cattle ready for Agribition the fall before that (does that make him qualify as a 'professional' fitter too?) The only people I ever hear talk about 'leveling the playing field' are the people that are standing at the bottom of the line and  and don't want to do the work  it takes to get to the top.

Shorty Queen......AMEN[size=10pt][/size]

 

[TJ]

I think someone else may have mentioned this already, but I think that motivation is the ONLY resource you need. If you have that, you can make everything else happen.  I can remember my first 'big show' where I was competing against the kids of the 'high rollers.'  I was so scared and was SURE  I was going to be last! (to this day, it is the most memorable second place I have ever received). It was easy to see there were some phenomenal cattle, and  I wanted mine to look like that. Any kid  who is serious about being involved in showing cattle and being competitive at it will see it  that way - there is no short cut to winning and if you can look up the line and see why those cattle are winning and yours are not, you've made a step in the right direction. The kids who are disenchanted to need to realize they have some work to do (its go big or go home). Competition breeds quality. As for the kids who have  a fitter - if they are interested, they will learn to do what the fitter is doing, and if they are not interested, they may win this show...but they probably won't win the next one - or even be at it as soon as they can convince their parents they are finished with showing.

Frankly, I've  had it up to there with the "rules" that try to 'even the playing field.' My brother and I used to fit as a team when we got our steers ready for  4-H.  His last year in 4-H, I didn't go in 4-H as I had gone away to college. I came back up for showday, and since I was still young enough to compete, I helped him fit his steer. The steer won, some 4-H parents threw a fuss, and my brother was disqualified for the grooming award because I helped him (and I was quote on quote 'a professional fitter.') Nevermind he spent every night in the barn working very hard on that steer and the steer would have won if he walked into the ring without any glue or that he helped get all my cattle ready for Agribition the fall before that (does that make him qualify as a 'professional' fitter too?) The only people I ever hear talk about 'leveling the playing field' are the people that are standing at the bottom of the line and  and don't want to do the work  it takes to get to the top.

You nailed it.  (clapping)

Motivation is the most important thing.  Of course, a motivator/teacher/encourager/mentor is important too, but that will only help if the kid is willing to learn & work. 

I also agree that those on the bottom are usually the ones who make the most noise about "leveling the playing field."  If they want to level the "playing field" they most certainly can do that, but only if they are truly motivated enough to level the playing field. 

 

[TJ]

I do get tired of people playing the disadvantage card. I was the youngest kid of 9 children. We DIDN'T have anything when I was a kid. ( I know cry me a river.... ) I took what came out of the barn that I have raised and broke. My parents are the age of most folks grandparents. If you want to compete you can, you just have to want it. MONEY or NOT. If you don't have any money, it doesnt cost anything to hitch a ride to a cattle show and spend time before the show starts and watch watch watch. I spent all summer working,so I could to buy my own show supplies etc. Lets face, there are some children that do not have it easy, but when I was them- it made me try harder. Bobby May use to sell at least two calves and still does in our county fair. Bobby and crew would come to the county fair and groom. Now, I never let that bother me, I just spent more time watching them and asking questions.
Life has been good to me. We have more advantages than I did as a kid. I spend most of my disposible income on the cattle." Like they say, we use to have money and now we show cattle." The cattle are a family project, who cares who is feeding and grooming, it takes a family to get it all done. The kids and I both help other exhibitors with our little knowledge when we can.

okay, I will step off my soap box.

ps,
they have a fitting clinic with a PROFESSIONAL fitter the first day of the fair for the kids of ALL ages. He works on both steers and heifers. Has the kids groom and judges them. They can then take that information and apply it that week to there own cattle.

Excellent example of what hard work, motivation & a willingness to learn can overcome!!  I only wish that more people had that same type of mentality & drive, because this country would be in MUCH better shape! 

Rather than banning fitters & letting someone else "level the playing field" so that more people can take the "easy way out", I think that more people should try to work harder & level the playing field with hard work & learning. 

 

[Show Heifer]

IF they are serious about leveling the playing field do what our county did for ONE class. It was called a scramble class. The year before you caught a 500 pound calf that had never seen a human, haltered it, and drug it to the side of the the showring and tied it up. That entitled you to a heifer in Oct/Nov when the cattleman assoc went to ONE producer and picked out heifer calves. All the same genetics. You then showed up on a Saturday and drew a tag number, and that was your heifer. In order to keep the heifer, you had to show it the following year at the fair.
So you have same heifers at the beginning of the project, and guess what, by July, there were 250 pounds difference in their weights, some were bred some weren't, some were "nice" some weren't.  It all depended on what the family did with it between Oct and July!!!  THAT leveled the playing field.

Although I am not sure so I agree with the statement about only the losers want to "level the playing field, etc."
I once heard a class winner complain the class took too long and could they put a time limit on the classes? "It is too hot (in their best whiny voice!)"
I lost plenty of times, and I couldn't have cared less. Honestly. (And I am darn competitive) I had tried my hardest and did all my own work, so I guess you could say I lost all by myself!!! ;D  BUT, it did make me do things differently the following year. Maybe a different breed, maybe different training practices, maybe different goop. Trial and error.
Maybe I was the only one in the world that felt that losing didn't mean quiting, or cheating, or sacrificing my respect for myself. But I don't think so. Many kids show livestock for fun (imagine that). So please don't link "not placing high enough" with complaining or whining....THAT just isn't right or fair.

I heard a very wise judge once say after the champion selection : "They problem with todays youth programs is there are to many 40 year old 4-H'ers."  Couldn't have said it better myself!!

 

[JSchroeder]

There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isn’t about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  I’m not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because it’s their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?

 

[justme]

I was a disadvantaged kid in the cattle aspect of 4-H growing up.  My dad was a "city" boy, my mom raised horses...and somehow they had a daughter that LOVED cattle.  I saved to by my first calf (CharolaisxChiAng).  Thank goodness for the steer jocks.  Those couple years of dreaming of owning and showing a calf, I was in the shaddows studying there every move.  So with that first calf...I had my grandpas old horse brushes and combs and a shop vac.  Turned that shop vac on blow and I washed and blowed that calf like crazy.  I had no "real" clippers.  Mom was a beautician and me and her hacked at that poor silver steer hair lol.  You know what...I think other than my daughters accomplishments this year, I am proudest of "old Petie".  My love for that old silver steer inspired me to major in beef at OSU/ATI.  I went on to manage Penn's Polled Herefords and now I manage our breeding and show cattle here at our farm.

Granted, not all steer jocks will let a young girl watch them for hours that never even attempted to buy a calf from them...but thank goodness I did.

Before our daughter was old enough for "real" 4-H we (my husband and myself) offered every kid in beef help.  We went to anyones farm and helped them clip there calves ect.  Every kid we helped got to hold the clippers and do some of the work.  On show day, any kid that wanted there calf fit, we took our shoot and all our supplies.  We helped all of them that wanted help.  We had the time of our life, and the kids were down on the knees helping.  What a shame that after that year, the very small livestock committee decided that isn't allowed anymore.  This year our daughter was old enough to show, we could help her but nobody else.  Really to bad...all it hurt was a the few kids that wanted to learn, and help a very small few.  I really think Jr. shows need to think of the kids once again. (this is in general)

OK enough sounding like the grumpy old man on Saturday Night live that use to say "In my day...." lol

 

[chambero]

There are obviously many exceptions, but most of the "fitters" out there are doing this because they like to.  I haven't seen many kids turned down for help (at least pointers) even if they didn't buy calves from someone.

Showing cattle is so competetive you can't compete at the highest levels without help from someone that knows what they are doing AND a kid that knows what they are doing.  I often think there are more good jocks/fitters than kids willing to keep up their end of the bargain.  I've always believed that if a kid will prove to someone that they love showing and are willing to do the work someone will "find" them and see that they have a proper animal one way or another.  Unfortunately, most of our higher selling calves over the years have disappeared to people with means but little motivation.  But every year we put calves in local kids hands for market price just so they'll get shown and taken care of.

 

[itk]

There are obviously many exceptions, but most of the "fitters" out there are doing this because they like to.  I haven't seen many kids turned down for help (at least pointers) even if they didn't buy calves from someone.

Showing cattle is so competetive you can't compete at the highest levels without help from someone that knows what they are doing AND a kid that knows what they are doing.  I often think there are more good jocks/fitters than kids willing to keep up their end of the bargain.  I've always believed that if a kid will prove to someone that they love showing and are willing to do the work someone will "find" them and see that they have a proper animal one way or another.  Unfortunately, most of our higher selling calves over the years have disappeared to people with means but little motivation.  But every year we put calves in local kids hands for market price just so they'll get shown and taken care of.

Couldn't agree more. We all have families that we will sell cattle to for less money because they will take good care of them. We all also have families that we jack the prices up on because we have to make up for the fact that the calf will show up at the fair looking terrible. Once we find someone who loves showing, as breeders, we hold on tight to them because we know they will put in the work to make the animal look its best every time out even if we have to sell that animal for alittle less.

 

[OH Breeder]

There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isn’t about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  I’m not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because it’s their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?

I think the post was about peoples opinions on fitters and kids. Most of the points I have seen have been in referance to one or the other, like- if that 4th grader wants to compete then that 4th grader needs to take the INITATIVE and go and watch some 18 year olds groom. I have seen some 4th and 5th graders that did a better job in the fitting and grooming contest than 18 year olds. The younger ones usually do less and the older ones do more. Sometimes, less is more. If Mom an Dad are going to pay a professional, then have the kid jump in and help. As mentioned many times previously in this post, have them come to the farm prior to the show as well and work with the kids. I don't know too many fitters who won't do that. In my experience, they are more than willing to do both. It is not about age, it is about dedication and motivation. I think most of are saying the same thing. Age and motivation aren't always hand at the same level.

 

[JSchroeder]

Like I said, if you want to teach the kid how to fit, hire a fitter to teach the kid, not do the work for the kid.