Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!

[cowz]

Like I said, if you want to teach the kid how to fit, hire a fitter to teach the kid, not do the work for the kid.

Excellent thought!  I witnessed this in real life this summer.  Some people with young kids ended up with 4 college age "fitters" to help.  Well the "fitters" did all the work, circling like vultures, ......the poor kids were not allowed to hardly touch their stock, not even wash em!  When the fitter is a true mentor, something wonderful occurs....an education!  When the kiddo is frustrated because everyone is soooo fussy...it takes all the fun out of it.

Fitting is an artform.  Takes passion and patience.  These are two valuable traits we can pass on to the next generation if we dont get so caught up in ourselves.

 

[TJ]

There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isn’t about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  I’m not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because it’s their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?

What about kids buying pre-broke calves?  Is not halter breaking an important part of a kids project too?  Yet, nobody complains about that, nor should they, IMHO.  And that is coming from somebody who used to break all of their own calves & who thinks that teaching kids to break their own calves is just as important as it is to teach them to fit.

With that said, if you really want to put the emphasis on "the kids & their project" here is what you should do... 

GET SHOWS TO PUT MORE EMPHASIS ON SHOWMANSHIP!!  It's really that simple.  If kids are judged on their fitting skills & knowledge & their showmanship skills & knowledge it will promote & if those kids are rewarded in a fashion similar to way that Grand Champion animals are rewarded, only then will you truly see everybody focusing on those aspects.  In other words, if the Grand Champion steer receives $500, then give the champion showmanship winner $500 too.  If you have a sale of champions, not only should you let the Champion animals sell, but you should also sell the Champion Showmanship winners animals as well.  For example, if the Grand Steer sells for $20,000+, then make sure that sponsors are also lined up to buy the Showmanship winners calf for at least $10,000.  If you put enough pressure on Shows & Show Committees to do something like that, it can happen.  If you feel that strongly, donate money to go into a pot to give to the Grand Champion Showmanship winner at the county fair.  It can be done & if it were to happen, more kids & parents would focus more time on fitting & showmanship skills of themselves/their children and IMHO, more & more kids would become as good or better than most pro-fitters. 

When I am talking about Showmanship, I am talking about having kids judged both on their fitting skills & their skills displaying an animal in the showring & their knowledge of doing both. 

With that said a Steer Show is a Steer Show... meaning the best steer should win.  It is totally different than a Showmanship/Fitting class & IT SHOULD BE!!  I'm not saying that Showmanship/Fitting doesn't play into it, it does, but it is still about the best steer. 

Again, if you want more focus on the kids & their projects, then encourage shows to place more focus on the showmanship/fitting aspect of it.  Donate to the cause if you have to.  If you do that, you will solve more & promote your cause a lot more than banning fitters on showday, IMHO.  I'll admit that a good fit job can dramatically change an animal, but shows are won or lost AT HOME not on showday, so banning a fitter is not really going to change much, IMHO. 

I still think that fitters should be allowed to help kids on showday.  I also think that picking the best animal & rewarding kids for displaying the best animal is A VERY IMPORTANT part of showing cattle.  IMHO, the kids who win the calf shows SHOULD get a bigger piece of the pie!!  But, I also see nothing wrong with the Champion Showman/Fitter & Reserve getting a bigger piece of the pie too!!  I see nothing wrong with rewarding class winners in both the calf shows & the showmanship/fitting shows. However, I do see something wrong with rewarding everyone equally. The winners SHOULD get more & the higher up the ladder they go, the more they should get, IMHO 

I could go on & mention that kids can also learn very valuable life skills by hiring fitters.  Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.  Those who can get things done will excel in when they get out on their own.  Those skills are not only helpful in the business world, but they are very valuable skills to have if your future is going to be in AG!!  Of course hard work, self motivation & being able to do things yourself are also important skills to have.  I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more. 

 
 

 

[TJ]

But, let's be honest...  many 1st year, 4th graders, may actually "outwork" everyone else, but they just don't have the "fitting skills" to compete with an 18 year old who has been showing all their life & who is a 4H member, because they didn't join the  FFA

Why do you think that 4th grader should be able to step right in and compete with seniors in high school who have been fitting calves for a decade?

OK, you answered my question so here it goes...

In a showmanship/fitting class they probably will not be able to.  Nor should they.  And that is where the older, more experinced kids should have an advantage & they probably should be able to win those classes!!  However, those classes are called SHOWMANSHIP & FITTING for a reason, & because of that, they should be judged seperately & treated differently, IMHO.  Read my last post for more regarding that. 

If the aspects of showmanship/fitting is important to you, encourage shows to place more emphasis on those aspects of the youth beef projects.  Honestly, I wish more shows would do more to promote & encourage those aspects more!! 

However, we are talking about steer shows where the best calf is supposed to win.  We are not talking about the best showring exhibitor or the kid who can fit the best or who has the most experience.   Once again, it is about the best calf... period.   IMHO, nothing is wrong with a kid or their parents doing all that they can to LEGALLY & ETHICALLY make their calf become the best that it can be, when that is what a steer show is all about.  You may argue it is the kids project.  Well, you are correct.  But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat (air, pump, drug, cosmetic surgery, etc.)???  IMHO,  kids/parents are smart if they seek outside help if they are new to the game & if they are not knowledgable or skilled enough to fit themselves.  Again, it is about the best calf.  So, if a kid learns how to hire help, learns how to budget money to pay for the help & learns how to sub-contract & delegate responsibility in order to do that, can you honestly say that a kid has learned nothing valuable?  Also, if that kid has to mows yards, trim bushes, cleans gutters, work at a feed store, help a neighbor on their farm, etc, in order to make enough money to be able to afford the best fitter, or to be able to afford to pay their own feed bill or to maybe even to be able to afford to buy their own calf, how is all that not a valauble life lesson too?  I think it is VERY VALUABLE!!   Maybe if they weren't working somewhere else, maybe they could be able to afford to have that project.  You may disagree, but I would applaude that kid for being an intelligent, go-getter & a highly motivated individual!!  Also, IMHO, they may actually learn a lot more by doing that & they may even be better prepared for adulthood.  What if they are very active in church, clubs, sports, judging teams, debate teams and other activities?  IMHO, if they are doing all those things, they are going to be learning valuable things & possibly even doing a lot of good... they will also likely need help with their projects & IMHO, nothing is wrong with that at all!!  Also, what if both parents work off the farm & the kid has to do it all on their own, but is young & needs assistance/supervision?  Is it wrong for them to hire a fitter to help that kid while they are working?  IMHO, I think it is a very wise & commendable thing to do!! 

In a perfect world, every kid would break, feed, care for, rinse, wash, groom, clip, fit & show their own calves & the parents would be around for assistance/supervision.  However, this isn't a perfect world... it is actually a very hectic one.  When the contest is the best animal... period, why is it such a big deal for people to hire help?  In the "real world" that is the way things are done. 

In summary... if it was a Showmanship/Fitting class, I would totally agree with you & you would have no argument from me.  However, IMHO, that is why we have those Showmanship/Fitting classes.  Also, let me repeat that IMHO, a live animal show should be about the BEST live animal/s & making those animals become the best that they can become.  How that happens (as long as it is both legal & ethical) is not nearly as important as the kid learning how to be able to make that happen, IMHO.  This isn't a perfect world & nothing is ever going to work perfectly, nor is everything fair. 

I'm pretty opinionated & some may disagree with me.  That is OK.  We will just have to agree to disagree.   
   

 

[JSchroeder]

The showmanship and halter breaking subjects are straw men, I’m talking specifically about professional fitters at junior shows.  I’m not arguing for/against halter breaking or increasing emphasis on showmanship.  I’m arguing that kids should be responsible for their own projects and professional fitters are spitting on that idea by doing the kid’s work for them.

Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.

I figured you would go there.  Feeder/production competitions would be a great place to teach business sense but that’s not what we are talking about.  Trying to apply logic regarding economics and the business world to a system where big money steers having their hair groomed more than a beauty queen and then sold for bookoos of donated money is folly at best. 

You are teaching kids that if they can’t do something, they don’t need to put in the effort to learn it as long as mommy and daddy are there to hire somebody to make up for their shortcomings.

I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more.

Agreed.

Hire a fitter to teach the kids if you insist on them being involved in junior shows instead of the open shows where they belong.  They still get all of the business education you claim, they learn a skill, and they are responsible for their own success or failure.

Once again, it is about the best calf... period.

If it’s only about the calf, why do we have a junior division and open division?  Shouldn’t all cattle be shown against each other if it’s really “all about the best calf…period”?

But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat

This is about the tenth time I’ve said this but if they want to seek outside help, seek outside help to TEACH them, not do the work for them.  I addressed your shaky business education claims above.

 

[TJ]

The showmanship and halter breaking subjects are straw men, I’m talking specifically about professional fitters at junior shows.  I’m not arguing for/against halter breaking or increasing emphasis on showmanship.  I’m arguing that kids should be responsible for their own projects and professional fitters are spitting on that idea by doing the kid’s work for them.

Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.

I figured you would go there.  Feeder/production competitions would be a great place to teach business sense but that’s not what we are talking about.  Trying to apply logic regarding economics and the business world to a system where big money steers having their hair groomed more than a beauty queen and then sold for bookoos of donated money is folly at best. 

You are teaching kids that if they can’t do something, they don’t need to put in the effort to learn it as long as mommy and daddy are there to hire somebody to make up for their shortcomings.

I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more.

Agreed.

Hire a fitter to teach the kids if you insist on them being involved in junior shows instead of the open shows where they belong.  They still get all of the business education you claim, they learn a skill, and they are responsible for their own success or failure.

Once again, it is about the best calf... period.

If it’s only about the calf, why do we have a junior division and open division?  Shouldn’t all cattle be shown against each other if it’s really “all about the best calf…period”?

But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat

This is about the tenth time I’ve said this but if they want to seek outside help, seek outside help to TEACH them, not do the work for them.  I addressed your shaky business education claims above.

RE the best calf...  If a JR owns it & shows it, that makes it the JR's calf.  Everything else goes to the open show.


To each his own.  We may just have to agree to disagree. 

FWIW, if it were my own kids or nephews/neices, they would be raising, breaking, caring for, feeding, grooming, rinsing, washing, blowing, brushing, fitting, showing, etc. as much as possible.  I think that they will learn more that way, but I also wouldn't complain if Jane Doe's kids hired Mr. Fitter to fit their calves & if they won the live animal show.  To me, that is there right to hire that fitting help.  With that said, what my kids/nephews/neices couldn't do, I would help them myself & if I couldn't, I would find them someone who could help them, as well as teach them.  As long as it is a Steer Show & not Showmanship/Fitting, I see nothing wrong with helping when needed.

Also, I want to point out that, right or wrong, I have been appointed our counties "official youth leader" everytime that I have attended our state fair since fitters have been banned.  I never asked to do it, but was asked to do it.  I don't consider myself a pro-fitter, but I have been paid numerous times to fit for other peoples cattle for open breeding shows, so by definition, I guess I am one.  But yet, I still get appointed as our counties "youth leader" because everyone around here knows that I have a lot of experience showing cattle, I was asked & have put on a free clinic/class for all the kids in the counties beef project, I always offer to help those kids/families who need it for free anyway & I love helping mentor/teach/encourage kids.  As an appointed "youth leader"... I can do anything to to anyones calf from our county at the State Fair, as long as it is within the rules, as long as I don't get paid for doing it & as long as I help everyone from the county who asks for help & share my time equally.  Now, if I am allowed to help all the kids from this county @ a State Show, how my helping those kids any different from those same kids being allowed to hire professional help of their choice?  IMHO, it is not any different at all & I am convinced that many pro-fitters serve as youth leaders & help certain counties.  Some of those other "youth leaders" are big time & highly skilled.  And you know what?  They same people, from the same families, from the same counties that were winning when  fitters were allowed, are the same ones who are winning now that fitters are banned.  IMHO, very little has changed.  You can ban the fitters from helping at the shows, but it wont change much at all, IMHO.                         

FWIW, at this years county fair, I have decided to donate enough $ to match the amount paid out to the Champion & Res. Steers & to have a matching amount awarded to the Champion Showmanship/Fitter winner.  If you want to forward your cause & are serious about doing it, you should consider doing the same. 

For the final time, banning fitters will not help or solve a thing & you are not going to stop their involvement (particularly before the show... when it really counts!!) unless you encourage the kids to take an active role & encourage/promote Showmanship/Fitting classes on the a similar reward level as the regular Steer Show.  Make Showmanship/Fitting Awards more prestigous, like they should be, & that will be a giant 1st step in the right direction toward what you want to see happen. 

I appreciate your strong stance & you make some valid points... some that I agree with, some that I disagree with, but like I said, for the most part, we may just have to agree to disagree. 

 

[TJ]

The showmanship and halter breaking subjects are straw men, I’m talking specifically about professional fitters at junior shows.  I’m not arguing for/against halter breaking or increasing emphasis on showmanship.  I’m arguing that kids should be responsible for their own projects and professional fitters are spitting on that idea by doing the kid’s work for them.

If you are going to argue that kids are soley responsible for their own projects & if you are going to argue that kids are soley responsible for doing all the work, then pre-halter broke calves is a VERY valid subject!!  I think that it is very hypocritical to argue otherwise.  IMHO, it's like being for the beach, but disregarding the sand....  you can't be for one, without being for both.  But, that's just my opinion, just like everything else that I've typed... & I've been known to be wrong. 

 

[rmbcows]

There are some really great points being made here!  I think the halter breaking issue is a valid point.  Surely you wouldn't expect a 9 yo to do all the halter breaking themselves, although I know some really tough little buggers that could get'r done if the calf was small enough.  Reality is, most kids that age just aren't physically strong enough to break a 400lb+ calf, and that's probably the lower end of the spectrum.  If I remember anything about my 4-H  years I believe it's supposed to be a "family" thing... can anyone out there help me out with this?

 

[rmbcows]

TJ...  You refer to showmanship/fitting classes in your posts, is it called a showmanship/fitting class, or is there a showmanship competition and a fitting competition?  Just curious, they are two seperate things here. 

 

[renegade]

When i came back to idaho i hadnt lived here since i was eight. We hadnt done ANY showing, just helped my greatgrandfather raise his commercial herd. We arent rich but have enough to get things done. I decided to get into showing cattle and i only knew a few people that showed cattle around here and i couldnt even pry the weigh in dates out of them. I got some help from my advisor and a senior in my ffa that is pretty well known in cattle around here ( they started out practically the same way i am) but she didnt have a whole lot of time to help because she had a huge show string as well as a huge herd at home. I took a few showing lessons from her to get the basics and her sister HELPED me clip my animals. I dont know if that was allowed but i did most of the work she supervised and i got my steer trimmed with thiers, there trimmer shows some awesome cattle and his son is an awsome showman and has great cattle.

I was so nervous at my first show. My first steer was a black angus X and he had a horrible attitude, didnt respond well. I had worked with him but didnt know a whole lot about training cattle or even to tie him up every day. Well i had gotten as much grooming info as i could over the summer but no one here puts alot of grooming work in so he just got bathed and brushed a few times a week.

Needless to say i broke down into tears after my first showmanship class because he acted like an ablsolute fool... wouldnt stand still, kept throwing his head, etc... i felt like an idiot. Especially since i went against two people in my ffa and they got first and second and i was last. He was an ok calf but not good enough to stand at the top of a class. i feel like i just wasnt doing enough to learn but it was like beating my head against the wall to get any help.  So then and there i decided to watch every showmanship class possible, watch the winners and do what they do, watch the champion rounds, and i had the same philosophy for market and breeding classes...watch the winners.

the november after that fair i told one of the kids i showed against that i had gotten my steer for the next year he said,
"Are you sure you can handle coming in last again?" That just made me want to win even more. So i practiced, looked up how to break calves and feed them... anything i could. Everything went fine except that one calf that just wouldnt eat. Well i called the trimmer and he came out and said i had calves that were in the top ten and twenty percent of steers that would be at the fair and i was amazed. He offered to help me for the next fair(2008) to pick out calves, showmanship, clipping, etc. Just about anyone would kill to have this guy helping them(Hes one of the "cheaters" because his son is awsome and wins, his cattle look awsome and win and he has a cooler room).

I used his blower at the fair and i took first in my steer class, third in showmanship, reserve champ bull. Then at the next fair i swept them in breeding, didnt have a steer, and i beat one of those girls who doesnt see her steer until that day but always wins!!! The kid who had made the rude comment to me stood at the bottom of both of his classes..." because the judge didnt like him".

Sorry about the long post but i just wanted to show you that you dont have to have money, be raised showing or have connections. In one year i did a complete turn around with a lot of motivation and hard work (and a little bit of raw talent) i practically swept my classed of 8 and more kids, won some money, had a lot of fun and made a connection with one of THE BIGGEST breeders around here.

 

[OH Breeder]

Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.

I figured you would go there.  Feeder/production competitions would be a great place to teach business sense but that’s not what we are talking about.  Trying to apply logic regarding economics and the business world to a system where big money steers having their hair groomed more than a beauty queen and then sold for bookoos of donated money is folly at best. 

This is about the tenth time I’ve said this but if they want to seek outside help, seek outside help to TEACH them, not do the work for them.  I addressed your shaky business education claims above.

If you aren't teaching the kids about the business side of things even though its a loss, that is sad. My kids- are my neices and nephews. They do all the care and showing, I provide the animals and the resources for their projects. BUT, at the end of the project I make sure they know how much a pound of feed , hay, and bedding cost as well as the utilities that run the cooler and the fans. They know and I know it is not practical to show calves unless you go real big. But they also know exactly what they are walkiing in the ring and how much it cost to get that animal ready for show ie: show supplies. If they aren't learning this about the project the only thing that is "shaky" is the person funding the project. The older nephews that are done showing want their children to learn what its all about and are already lining their kids up for pee wee showmanship and coming out to help feed, bed, wash calf...etc. There are VALUABLE life skills to be taught as TJ says, its whether YOU take the time to teach them.

 

[TJ]

TJ...  You refer to showmanship/fitting classes in your posts, is it called a showmanship/fitting class, or is there a showmanship competition and a fitting competition?  Just curious, they are two seperate things here.   

Some places it is 2 seperate things, but the 2 can be combined & that is what I was talking about.  We've done it both ways in the past, but currently it is just a traditional showmanship class at the County Fair & the kids can have help fitting for Showmanship.  However, I hope to change that because I think that it is a serious mistake when the 2 are seperated.  IMHO, fitting is a very important part of showmanship.  If showmanship is presenting your animal to the best of your ability, then it involves not only what happens in the showring, but also what happens during the fitting process.  I would like for our county fair to give a grand & reserve championship award for the 2 combined (in the ring & the fitting part) & call it "Showmanship".  I don't think that it will be a problem getting that to happen.  One of my sisters real good friends, is the 4H leader, my cousin is one of the FFA advisors & I know everyone on the local Show Committee, so I think that I can pursade them... especially if I offer to sponsor the award/prize.   

 

[shorthorns r us]

TJ...  You refer to showmanship/fitting classes in your posts, is it called a showmanship/fitting class, or is there a showmanship competition and a fitting competition?  Just curious, they are two seperate things here.   

Some places it is 2 seperate things, but the 2 can be combined & that is what I was talking about.  We've done it both ways in the past, but currently it is just a traditional showmanship class at the County Fair & the kids can have help fitting for Showmanship.  However, I hope to change that because I think that it is a serious mistake when the 2 are seperated.  IMHO, fitting is a very important part of showmanship.  If showmanship is presenting your animal to the best of your ability, then it involves not only what happens in the showring, but also what happens during the fitting process.   I would like for our county fair to give a grand & reserve championship award for the 2 combined (in the ring & the fitting part) & call it "Showmanship".  I don't think that it will be a problem getting that to happen.  One of my sisters real good friends, is the 4H leader, my cousin is one of the FFA advisors & I know everyone on the local Show Committee, so I think that I can pursade them... especially if I offer to sponsor the award/prize.     

when would you propose this contest occur in relation the real show?

 

[TJ]

There are some really great points being made here!  I think the halter breaking issue is a valid point.  Surely you wouldn't expect a 9 yo to do all the halter breaking themselves, although I know some really tough little buggers that could get'r done if the calf was small enough.  Reality is, most kids that age just aren't physically strong enough to break a 400lb+ calf, and that's probably the lower end of the spectrum.   If I remember anything about my 4-H  years I believe it's supposed to be a "family" thing... can anyone out there help me out with this?

I agree that a 9 year old will likely need help breaking a calf.  Also, unless they grew up around show cattle or have spent lots of hours in a show barn, they will need help fitting too.  Young kids need help & nothing wrong with providing them help, except for classes geared toward fitting/showmanship.  

As far as the family thing... I certainly think that is the best case scenario.  But, let's play "what if".

What if both parents work 40+ hours a week, drive have a 2 hour commute & simply have little to no time to help?  

What if it is a single parent home & the single parent has to not only go to work, but do all the house work too + raise the kid all by themselves & simply doesn't have time to help?

What if that kid who has busted their tail all year long, has a show on a day when both parents have other obligations & can't take off work?

What if the kid who busted their tail all year long, has a parent is battling an illness & the other has to take care of their sick partner?  

Should a willing & eager young kid be denied outside hired help in any of those 4 scenarios?  If so, I am eager to here anyones reasoning as to why?  You see, everything is not always as simple as black & white, a whole lot of grey can get mixed in too.  

 

[TJ]

TJ...  You refer to showmanship/fitting classes in your posts, is it called a showmanship/fitting class, or is there a showmanship competition and a fitting competition?  Just curious, they are two seperate things here.   

Some places it is 2 seperate things, but the 2 can be combined & that is what I was talking about.  We've done it both ways in the past, but currently it is just a traditional showmanship class at the County Fair & the kids can have help fitting for Showmanship.  However, I hope to change that because I think that it is a serious mistake when the 2 are seperated.  IMHO, fitting is a very important part of showmanship.  If showmanship is presenting your animal to the best of your ability, then it involves not only what happens in the showring, but also what happens during the fitting process.   I would like for our county fair to give a grand & reserve championship award for the 2 combined (in the ring & the fitting part) & call it "Showmanship".  I don't think that it will be a problem getting that to happen.  One of my sisters real good friends, is the 4H leader, my cousin is one of the FFA advisors & I know everyone on the local Show Committee, so I think that I can pursade them... especially if I offer to sponsor the award/prize.     

when would you propose this contest occur in relation the real show?

Actually, your question is probably the reason why most shows don't want to do what I am talking about!  Most local shows like to do everything all at once & get it over with.  Also, I'll bet that many don't want the kids fitting calves for showmanship & then having to let that kids fit job have to work for "the real show" too.  Nor will others want a fitter to potentially fit the calf earlier in the day that a kid has to fit that same calf for a fitting/showmanship competition.  But, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

The best way to do it & the best way to get a max effect, IMHO, is to have at least one show that is strictly nothing but a fitting/showmanship show all by itself.  And have it on a weekday or weekend when no other shows are taking place.  I would not have a regular show at that particular event, that is, if you want to do it right & get kids to thinking more about fitting & showmanship.  If it could be done that way, ideally, other than helping the kids unload & set up equipment or helping them to get a stubborn calf to lead, make the kids do all the rest all by themselves!  IMHO, that is by far the best way to do it.  If you make the jackpot/stakes high enough... plenty of kids will attend!  So that wont be an issue.   

I don't know how it is anymore, but at our State Fair, showmanship used to be held the afternoon before the show. That is the next best scenario.  The another scenario includes having the showmanship either in the morning & "the real show" in the afternoon or vice versa.  Another possibility, is to have "the real show" 1st thing in the AM & once it concludes, then have a short break, then let everyone break down everything in the hair & wash it all out.  Then let the kids lead a wet, slicked down calf into the grooming area where it could then be blown dry & fitted by the kid. 

Of course, if both shows are held on the same day or even held on consecutive days & "the real show" comes first, some could argue that the calves could have already been clipped by someone else for "the regular show" before showmanship.  They would be correct, BUT, if that is going to be the case, you can write it down that those same calves would be clipped by someone else before leaving for the show anyway, so that argument isn't going to carry too much weight.  Also, there is not going to be a perfect time or a perfect answer or a perfect way to do this.  It wont always be fair, it wont always go perfectly, but that's because this isn't a perfect world & it isn't going to be in this age. 

Also, if you are one of those who is bent on banning fitters,  you can have your showmanship/fitting competition 1st at your show & the real show IMMEDIATELY following it.  That way, you wont have to worry about them as nearly as much, BUT, you still wont stop the fitters from clipping the calves beforehand or doing a few tweaks at before the show.  Stopping fitters all together just "ain't gonna happen"!!   
 
All I know to tell you is to try it different ways & see how it works.  Worst case, you are talking about spending a few extra hours on a show day at a location, but if you are already at the show location anyway & are competing for potential prizes in basically 2 seperate show, what is a few hours going to matter?  Especially if showing cattle is what you like to do!   


I still think it's OK for a hired fitter to help kid with a show calf for "the real show".  The only time I don't think that a fitter or anyone else should be allowed to help a kid is during a fitting/showmanship combo competition. 

 

[DLD]

Along the lines of what you're talking about, we have team fitting contests here at the OK Youth Expo and the Tulsa State Fair. I know the contest at OKC allows 1 team per county, and alot of counties have an elimination contest at their show to determine who gets to go. The rules call for a 3 person team with both sexes represented (1 boy & 2 girls or 2 boys and 1 girl) and at least one member has to be 12 or younger. They start with a clean, unfitted calf and have a set amount of time to get them ready to show. The teams are judged not only on how well the calf is fit, but on each member's participation (it counts against you if 1 member does all the fitting, 1 runs the blower the whole time, and 1 just tries to look busy, even if the calf looks great in the end). I haven't  gotten to watch Tulsa's, but I believe the rules may vary a little (maybe seperate junior and senior divisions, not limited to one team per county, etc...). They've gotten some good sponsors and lots of good prizes (clippers and other show equipment along with the usual bags, chairs, jackets, etc...). This seems to do alot to encourage alot of kids to want to learn to be good fitters, maybe moreso than any other single thing I've seen. The Youth Expo also has a big showmanship contest with nice prizes and lots of prestige involved. The winner in each of 3 age groups from each county participates in the state contest - also great incentive for the kids. Many breeds in the heifer show have showmanship contests for their exhibitors as well.

 

[Telos]

There is a lot to be said about this thing we call, "Showing Cattle". It is an art form, a competitive sport, and a learning tool to teach our youth many valuable lessons.

I have thought that a traveling Art Exhibit made up of champion livestock would be an interesting exhibition for all the great Art Museums in North America. It would also set a stage to help show people the creative process which takes place in rural America and Canada. It would be a high maintenance exhibit, but at $10 to $20 a pop and millions viewing....Maybe Brad Hook could promote such a venture. Sullivan's could even set up their booth. It could be titled,Still Life #3 with Bling-Bling Rope Halters. It would also give some fitters steady employment making sure the livestock are always looking their best.

 

[JSchroeder]

If you are going to argue that kids are soley responsible for their own projects & if you are going to argue that kids are soley responsible for doing all the work, then pre-halter broke calves is a VERY valid subject!!

I never said otherwise.  It’s a “VERY valid” subject but a different subject.

If you aren't teaching the kids about the business side of things even though its a loss, that is sad.

If you are concerned about the business side, production competitions would be MUCH more appropriate.  You don’t need to buy a show steer to teach a kid the price of feed or budgeting.  There are dozens of ag projects where you can teach that and not have to pretend profit doesn’t matter in the end as long as your cattle look good.

I realize you raise Shorthorns and the focus tends to lean more on the show ring than production.  And yes, there are lessons about “show cattle world” to be taught but please don’t pretend lessons apply directly to the real world of beef production any better than “real cattle” projects would.  Just one example; in the real world a low growth bull with cow killer type birth weights and a potentially lethal genetic defect would be hamburger.  In the world of show cattle, he’s cloned and the consensus best show steer sire alive.

Show animals are about the bottom of the list in terms of junior projects that provide business education.  You yourself admitted that one of the lessons is just how preposterous the entire economy of show steers is.

There are VALUABLE life skills to be taught as TJ says, its whether YOU take the time to teach them.

I'm not sure why you feel you need to tell me that, I'm the one that's been arguing on the side of taking the time to teach kids rather than hire professional fitters this entire thread.

 

[gatorbait]

What do ya do when everyone at the local show considers your lil 15 year old sister a professional and say its not fair. (lol) She helps me clip and fit for $.
Secondly showing is a sport just like playing baseball or football it doesn't have to make real world sense to learn and grow from it. Its all in where you want to spend your money. We happen to not be very athletically gifted no matter how much I practiced I would never be able to hit the broadside of a barn however with hard work we can compete in the showring. I say watch the professional fitters ask questions and practice till everybody says your a pro then help somebody else along.
And on the hired fitter thing we've never hired fitters we've always done it ourselves (big brother labors free or so I'm told!!!) but with the size of our string and everybody wanting our help we will probable hire for our local this year It sure will make things less stressful.

 

[Telos]

JSchroeder, I tend to sit on your side of the fence more often then not ie; to this issue.

I think what we need to understand is that this showing stuff has become fiercely competitive. It now takes a substantial group of team players to get one of these steers or heifers looking the part. Like I have stated in a previous post...It is not a good or bad thing, but just the way it is, and probably the way it will always be. What is sad, it is not about kids competing against kids in many cases, but it is that some these kids have to compete against adults.

I guess one lesson that can be learned from all of this is, it is the ones who have the most resources and who can create the best infra structure of team players that work together as an efficient team to get a particular job done. What the showring does not teach enough, are sound business mechanics of the beef cattle industry. For instance, I have always thought that refrigerated cooling rooms were a little obsessive and not very cost effective. It definitely is not about low input and high output ratios.

 

[Show Heifer]

I have scanned the above post, but admit I probably missed a few points so pardon me but...

I DID offer to sponser an award much bigger than that of the champion steer (trophy) for our champion showmanship AND commercial feeder pen (a steer class based strictly on numbers - nothing on prettiness) and was told I couldn't do it, as it would be unfair. And that tells the kids what?????

And heres another thought about 9 year olds being at a disadvantage (that's just life...a young salesman is at a disadvantage the first year of his work too, but do you hear them whining??)....How safe is it for a 9 year old weighing 80 pounds to be leading a 1250 pound steer/heifer anyway??? Several shows have banned ram sheep due to "safety reasons", and bulls can not be shown for "safety reasons", so why in the world would one assume that a 9 year old would be safe leading a steer/heifer? Maybe if the age limit was say 12-14, the kid WOULD do more of the work that they need to do due to the fact it is THE KIDS project....