Flush question

[TYD]

We are sending a cow to get flushed twice and I was just wondering if after the second flush instead of waiting for a cycle to breed her back could you put a cider in her bring her back in and basically make her a recip for her own egg to get her bred back for an earlier calf

 

[Dstncnnnghm]

That's a very good question and I'll see what I can find out! I'm going to start college next year and I intend to be a veterinarian specializing in embryology and genetic cloning so this question interests me! I'll get back wih you today hopefully!

 

[obie105]

I was always told that in between flushes or after a flush if you intend to breed they need to have a natural heat to actual flush or clean out their system from the flush. That the regular heat cycle is a good thing. I was told that it can be very hard to get them to breed on that first cycle after a flush as it is. If you are flushing twice then with just the time it takes for set up work and flush work it will be awhile anyways you may be better of to just leave her open for a fall that is what we do with our donor and her production seems to be very good.

 

[frostback]

Not sure you would gain anything from the CIDR. After a flush, the cow must have a heat, drug induced with a prostaglandin product(lut or estrumate) or I believe Cowboy on here infuses with  something that would kill any missed embryos. This is a must so if there are any missed that the cow will not become pregnant with numerous calves. Some places will give the shot right after the cow is flushed and just before she leaves the chute. They will sometimes become cystic form this. Others will wait a week or so and then give the shot. They do not always come in on the regular 24 to 36 hours with this shot. It takes longer sometimes. So putting a Cidr in her right away would not take care of the missed embryo problem, and you would be waiting a week for that anyway. The less drugs the better and just giving her a shot after words would work. Not all donors have a problem breeding back after flushing.

 

[CAB]

You can short cycle your cow, but I don't think that I would. Most PPL would want to breed their donor to a different bull to see what else may "click" with her. If you have a good size flush it is also sometimes hard to market a whole fush as there are only so many buyers for a paticular flush. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[frostback]

How do you short cycle one after a flush?

 

[CAB]

How do you short cycle one after a flush?

With your choice of PG. I personally would not do it & would breed on the 2nd natural heat cycle after the flush.

 

[frostback]

Is that really short cycling and not just the shot that assures a heat so as to not have a multiple pregnancy? That shot is a must and for $20 to $25 dollars why not trying on the first heat?

 

[obie105]

How do you short cycle one after a flush?

With your choice of PG. I personally would not do it & would breed on the 2nd natural heat cycle after the flush.

That was what I was getting at he just said it better. 

 

[braunranch]

We flushed 3 different cows last spring on farm, we only did them once mind you . They were given estrumate coming out of the chute i believe they cycled about 4 or 5 days later and all 3 rebreed and calved within a week of the last et calf. I would just breed her on the 1st cycle, but ask your embryo tech. I assume it may be tougher to rebreed after 2 flushes. If  a embryo will stick she'll rebred and be on the same timeline.

 

[Richland Farms]

Our donor calved January 23. Flushed her April 10th and froze 25. Then turned around and bred her on her first natural heat April 27th to Eye Candy and she bred extremely well, very hot heat. Just our experience with breeding after flushing.

 

[CAB]

You run a higher risk of you donor having multiple births if you breed on that first heat.

 

[Cowboy]

I must be getting soft the older I get, but am I one of the very few left who really CARE about your donor cows???

I could very well be TOO conservative, but I rather doubt it. I do not "Shoot em up" on flush day as Frosty said, I infuse them with a uterin friendly, but embryo killing Tetracyclene product to do two things -- yes -- kill any possibility of a missed embryo, but also to freshen up the uterus and make sure that there is no chance of any infection due to the trauma that comes with flushing. Alot of donors are carrying massive cysts and or scar tissue today from getting too many shots to bring them in heat. There really is no reason to do that -- NONE

As CAB my friend says, why would you even want to put her own embryo back in when you could get a totally differnt test to her ability by breeding to a different bull?

Give your cow a chance -- let her rest a bit after the flush, any one on here who as ever felt a superovualted ovary will atest to why I say -- WAR ZONE. The ovaries on your fresh cow are about the size of an in-shell walnut. After superovualtion with good respponse, that same small ovary can be as big or bigger than a SOFT BALL. Not many are, but the more eggs you get, the bigger they are. That is pure trauma - every egg recovered equals ONE CL -- put 10 on each side -- and you have alot of stuff there. Give her a chance to cycle twice on her own after infusion and breed -- it works really well -- trust me!

Hope that helps --  the only reason the vets are shooting Prostoglandins is to insure an open cow -- it has it's negatives -- I won't do it!

Terry

 

[frostback]

Cowboy read my post again please, I mentioned you specifically that you do not give them a shot but infuse. But you are giving the impression that just leaving the cow alone after the flush that she will come back in heat. Now she may but if one embryo was missed she may also become pregnant and if more are left she may have multiple eggs attach and have a mess. She must have a heat.
CAB if a cow is in heat, there are no embryos in there to attach and breeding her is fine.
The flush cow MUST have a heat after flushing dont make it seem like leaving her alone is the best thing, in this case.

 

[Cowboy]

Hey Norma -- I may have gotten too windy in my long post above, but I absolutely infuse EVERY donor after the flush before she leaves, I leave no chances of a pregnancy and it cleans up anything that may have been caused by the flush.

I don't agree with shooting them, but I absolutely do agree that we must make sure she is not carrying a stray embryo we missed (Yes, even I can miss one - it can happen). Infusing them with Bio-Mycin, buffered for the uterus - will insure no eggs survive, and also she is clean to go forward.

Sorry if you misunderstood. I just don't like to ask them to recycle a few days after the flush, mine will take two weeks - which will usually be a day plus/minus from a normal 21 day day heat from flush heat. Very seldom do I see a cow go more than a few days past her normal 21, this simply works with very little afects later. We haven't had a cow go cystic in so long I can't remember, and that may be the real reason I do not shoot them.

Which ever way works for every one I guess -- but this works for me and I have no regrets. I think the main reason most of the vets are giving PgF is to not get a call from a mad producer, but it can cause problems with some of these fertile cows. Cysts are not fun to deal with, so I don't take that chance.

Good luck to all -- sorry so windy

Terry

 

[aj]

Can sexed semen be used in a flush?