Flushing Problems

[Davis Shorthorns]

I was wondering if anyone had heard that shorthorns were harder to flush that most cattle?  I just sent one to be flushed and I didn't get any embryos.  The vet told me that shorthorns were known to need more than normal drugs to get the same result in embryos.  I didn't know if anyone had heard of this or not.  Thanks.

 

[shorthorns r us]

call terry morris, aka Cowboy, at 308.278.2300.  spend the money to get your cow to SW NE.  you won't be sorry.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Could be. My horns arent generally as fertile as my blacks to begin with. I have had 7 flushes on 4 cows. one went 28, 22, 9. one went 9,8 and two pitched a shutout in their only trip.

 

[justintime]

My ET vets say that some of the most fertile breeds to natural breeding or AI can be totally different when it comes to flushing. Our donors are all started on the same protocol and adjusted to different levels if the flush results are poor. I have two Shorthorn donors who are on the highest level protocol they will use in a flush, and they both produce good numbers of embryos in most flushes. At the same time , these two cows have always been AI bred when we decide it is time for them to have a natural calf and they have never repeated from the first AI breeding.
I have seen some sub fertile looking donors that look like they would never breed naturally, that have been amazing donors. It is quite interesting how this all works.

I normally will flush my donors every two months for a full year then rebreed them for a natural calf. I have occasionally flushed a cow for longer periods of time if they are still producing good flushes after the year is up. Occasionally I will find a cow that simply does not like to be flushed for some reason, and after two trys she goes back to meet the bull. Right now I have a donor that has been flushed every two months for over 5 years now. Her last flush was a week ago and she produced 18 grade 1 embryos. In 25 flushes, she has never been below 6 grade 1 embryos, and her last flush at 18 is her best. She shows no signs of stopping yet. I find that if you get a good donor, that she will continue to flush for an extended period if she has a minimum of two months rest between flushes.

I also find it interesting how the flush drugs affect donors in different ways. The cow that we have flushed for over 5 years shows no visable signs of ever being flushed. Others that will start to show signs of their tailheads raising, and they start to look stale after awhile. Usually when these signs start to show, it seems like they need to be rebred. I have continued to flush the one donor for over 5 years because she almost died 6 years ago. She lost a set of twins and I found her 3 days after giving birth flat out with viral Mastitis. She was down for over 2 weeks and I debated putting her down. She started to eat and drink on a fairly regular basis, and she eventually was able to stand again. She lost an incredible amount of weight so I turned her out on a pasture . She had always been a good producing female so I decided to flush her once and then ship her to market. That was 5 years ago and she is still producing embryos and she has not generated over $60,000 in embryo and offspring sales and I have several embryos in inventory and some ET daughters in the herd. I'm kinda glad I didn't put her down now. We have sold embryos to numerous states as well as Australia, Scotland, England, Ireland and we are flushing her next for a breeder in New Zealand.

 

[shortyisqueen]

We have had both good and bad luck flushing Shorties. We've heard from other breeders and the ET vets that they are harder to flush and in our experience, I believe them. The donor that gives us the best quality calves consistently is of those ones that doesn't flush alot of eggs each time, but if they catch, you know they're going to be good. Our donor that gives us the highest number of eggs with each flush just had twins this year, as did her full sister, for whatever that is worth. Both donors are highly fertile and catch each time to their AI service, but they react quite differently to the drugs.

On the other hand, a couple of our Hereford Cows were flushed for export to Russia last spring and both wound up producing over 50 freezable eggs each in two flushes...

We've found that administering the drugs ourselves and getting the vet to come out to our place as opposed to sending the cow to the embryo facility results in a higher number of eggs. I'm suspicious this is because the cow is more comfortable in her own environment with her herd mates and so responds better to the drugs. We also always flush only in the spring when we're breeding anyways so we can get a group of recips lined up to implant eggs that won't be freezable. The freezable ones go in the tank, and the other ones go in the cows so we're not wasting any. This is a saving grace if you don't get a whole bunch of freezable embryos, because you're not throwing anything away that you don't have to.

JIT, Is it still Davis Rairdan that does your embryo work or do you have someone who is closer to home now?

 

[Cowboy]

This is the type of post that you can come away with "2" possible end results.

1) Be tactfull and diplomatic, and possibly end up being liked and well thought of -- OR

2) Just be honest and stick a foot and half your leg into your mouth --

I am going to try to be some place in between~~ hehehe

First off -- THANKS to SRU for that nice refferal -- we sure enjoyed having Shae here last year -- all in all she did you pretty proud! Thanks SRU!!!

JIT has made some VERY good points, and I see most of them all the time. In my own herd , we had a cow we called Gramma -- I swear you could squirt the semen at her as she walked by you and get her bred, and back up WEEKS doing it. We decided to flush that good cow -- and as JIT said you just never know. You would feel as though that cow would be a gangbuster donor seeing how fertile she was -- WRONG. Believe me folks, fertility takes a whole new twist when it comes to the "Physiology" end of reproduction. I have deffinately noticed that the cows who appear to be the best looking with fertile history hardly ever make the best donors. Those cows who may not stand out in the herd, but produce better calves then themselves every time are your best GENETIC donors, but then may not be good egg producers either. Gramma flushed twice, with 2 and 4 eggs. She them promptly re-bred every year after and gained at least 2 weeks per year doing it! Go figure!

Year in and year out, I am amazed at how a cow who would not breed A-I, failed to the bull as well, and then because she made such good calves came in here as a donor. Almost every one of those cows would CRANK the eggs out -- with apparent ease. It is still after all a game, and the odds are in the favor of the cow! We can make changes as JIT said, but only to a point. They do have to help us out -- most of them do ust fine, others are a real frustration for both owner and me as well!

NOW -- (Inserting foot) After many years in this fine business, I must admit that I have had quit a few Shorthorns come here, and with the exception of a few -- they just never did AVERAGE as well as other breeds do. Especially the clubby bred type -- if they are really thick and muscular looking, it almost takes help from above to get them to work out right. Although I have had from -0- to 32 on Shorthorns, the average will be closer to 5-6.

Some breeds (Simmi's for example) need to be low dosed or you get huge responses, with most of them being bad from lack of ability to either fertilize or just take care of them. They have to be handled easily dose wise or you could flat destroy the cows. Any one ever felt an overy the size of a football???? I went to a place once where the owner decided to do it HIS way -- using his neighbors tips to super the donor. He never told me till later he had failed to use my dose schedule. I got ready to flush his cow - a Sim-An 5 year old -- and when I reached into her there was NO ROOM for my arm for all the ovarian size in there. I almost fell over with shock -- embarrassed as heck thinking I had really screwed her up! She would have had OVER 50-60 eggs - meybe even 100, but she had no chance to ever get them collected. I managed to fully flush that cow, and I only found 11 eggs -- ALL unfertile. What happened??? The overies bascily imploded -- the fimbria (Funnel around the ovary that cathes the eggs) could not expand large enough to even begin to collect them all, and for that matter -- were so stretched out of shape -- she was going to be permanently scared over -- she never rebred either.

I looked at that guy like I was waiting to be shot -- THEN he told me what he did -- my first reaction was anger -- I actually yelled at him for a few seconds, then I stopped and simply said -- I am sorry your cow could be sterile, I am sorry you didn't listen to me -- and I hope you call a different guy the next time. That is totally uncalled for folks, he simply did not know what he was about to do by listening to his Einstein neighbor -- he called a year later and apologized!!

Back to story -- Shorties -- on AVERAGE -- will be somewhat less productive in ET than some other breeds, but that does NOT mean that they do not do well. Some times we can PLAY with them like JIT said, and hit thier hot spot. Some just do not flush well at all - ever. I will let SRU tell his story if he feels the needs here -- it was interesting right ??

One thing I must add here is this -- I always ask if possible, that the donors can come here fo rme to work with. I have a rather unique way of doing them, and I have NO problem breeding them at 2 in the morning if need be. I breed ONE time, using 2 units of semen. Timing is everything for fertilization, and here at least -- the donors are 100 feet form my bedroom window!!! hehehe So my point is this, even with a rather smaller number of eggs, if you don't get there on time, you won't even getr them fertilized. With rare exception, we very seldom have a bad batch of eggs from these cows. Alot of things go into this, so if any ony one is a little under experienced at it -- it can get frustrating REAL quick!

This why I get called WINDY on occasion, so I will stop here -- probably didn't even answer your question but ut was fun trying! Better luck on your donors from here on -- smile JIT -- that cow of yours in unique!

;D ;D

Terry

 

[justintime]

We are still using Davis Rairdan  for our ET work almost exclusively. It is over 500 miles from home but they have treated us good and are excellent in assisting in getting our embryos shipped especially to international markets. There  have been many times that I have sold some embryos to Scotland or England and they have had a tank going there or to Denmark within a couple days. This kind of service is great both for us, and for the overseas buyers. We flush here at home from March to the end of June and then from Sept to November as Davis Rairdan come right to the farm and do the flushes. We send the donors we are going to flush through the winter months out to Davis Rairdan as they have excellent facilities. There are others doing ET much closer to us, but I tried a couple of them and did not think their level of expertise was even close to what Roger Davis and his crew provide. I hear excellent reports about Alta Embryo Group, as well, but I personally have not used them. Dr Don Miller is also excellent. One facility near me now has an excellent vet who has just arrived from Eastern Europe ( Romania or Chezoslovakia I think). He is a super ET vet and he has done nothing but ET for over 20 years. I have heard great things about him as well.

I forgot to mention that we have started deep breeding many of our Shorthorn donors, that is, we deposit a straw of semen as far into each horn as we can, when we inseminate. We are still breeding twice, even though many have gone to only breeding once. The deep breeding requires 4 straws for each flush rather than two, however it has resulted in a signifigant increase if fertilized embryos. For some reason we are getting higher numbers of grade 1 embryos by doing this, and less grade 2,3,or 4s. When it comes to flushing, the semen cost is usually a small part of the costs so I am not worried about wasting any semen.

Also, from my records, I am starting to wonder if I am getting more pregnancies from embryos that come from flushes that resulted in 6 to 10 embryos. It is nice to get the flushes of 15 to 20, but I am thinking we get less pregnancies from these embryos. This may be coincidence, I am not sure.  All I know is the more ET I do, just when I start to think I am figuring a few things out, something happens to prove my theroy is worthless. ET has a great way to keep you humble. If you have successes, you better enjoy them as there will certainly be disasters not far away. We flushed two donors yesterday. One donor has not missed in the last 4 flushes. This time we had all the embryos she would produce pre sold at $800 each. She has produced 10 embryos each of the last 3 flushes. Yesterday she had  9 unfertilized... and the semen checks out as being excellent quality.No wonder I don't have any hair left!!

 

[Cowboy]

Well I will be darned -- now I know this world IS small! Case in point!

I as well don't have much hair left for lots of reasons -- one being ET I am sure.

JIT -- I started horn breeding the donors 10 years ago, one unit per horn at least 6 hours after the last stand. Reason??
Just in front of the cervix is a large POOL of mucus in normal cows, ina donor -- it can be HUGE and does seem to be more viscus. My thinking was at that time -- why make the semen work thru all that crap when it would so easy (?? for some) to just go forward a little bit, say 1.5 inches or 2 inches, and deposit the semen forward of the lake of mucus. Voila!!!!!! I kep very accurate records on all donors before this time, and since. Fertilization rate here on ALL eggs collected for the past 4 years has been 97 percent. Yes it is true -- 97% are fertilized, and a very small percentage of those are dead or so poor we can't use them.

I have gotten some flack from a few laugh-aholics in the business for this technique -- first of all I am not a vet -- so they automatically think I am less inclined! I am sure there are a few around, but trully how many vet's today have been in 170,000 cows?? Not bragging, but it is fact. All I know is the results are there -- and if care is given at the time of breeding, you will increase your results - period! Good popint JIT -- good point!

Also, I agree with the percent pregnant verrsus total number recovered. For some darn reason, even though  EVERY egg is still a number one and looks great -- the bigger flushes just DO NOT yield the same percent pregnant! It is not unusual at all to get 5-6 - or 4-4 or 5-7, but it is rare to get 12-15 or 17-19 -- rare indeed. Years ago we had better media to use, meaning the new born and fetal calf serums we used to mix with the flush medias to make our own holding media. The embryos would grow FAST right in the dishes, I have noticed today that you could possibly see a stage 4 go to stage 5 in 2-3 hours, but before, we would have to hustle to get the embryos frozen before they got too big. We would have to make sure that only one or two donors would flush in one day -- being all alone -- it takes time!

Interesting indeed that you mention the horn breeding has increased your success rate -- hehehe -- I was thinking meybe I was the only outcast around. I know it works very well here -- but it has drawbacks if you are not real comfortable UP there.

Some time meybe SRU with enlighten the planet on what took place before we got his cow last year!!! Not a good thing!

Have a good night every one -- middle of calving, so I have an excuse for being up late(ER) than even normal for me! Things going good so far -- storm on it's way Friday thru Sunday -- so all bets are off now!!!

Terry

 

[shorthorns r us]

to keep it short, think holes jabbed in the uterus when being bred for a flush.  after six months, terry fixed what someone else had broken and was getting GOOD embryos.  i really thought that we were going to be eating $20k worth of hamburger meat.  terry got her turned around produced 9 & 8 egg flushes.  i know for a fact that i am not the only one that has had a cow saved in culbertson, nebraska. 

how long had that mummy been in that one while she sat at another et facility and they never knew?

 

[itk]

Did you not get any viable embryos or none at all. There could have been a problem with the semen. I'm assuming your cow is at Cross Country so I wouldn't worry about it to much, as those guys do it right and will get eggs for you if there are any to be had. They are also very conscious of the cow's health and will tell you if it is time to stop and put her back in calf. When my brother worked at an ET facility in south west NE we took a cow out there to get flushed. Her first flush was 31 the second was 0 and the third was 9. Also if this was her first flush they seem to be smaller on average then the second or third. I guess through all of this rambling I am trying to say is be patient your cow is at a great facility the eggs will come.

 

[Jill]

We also use Cross Country (hubby is there this morning actually) and it will take a time or 2 to get the dosage right for your cow, it is different on all of them.  We  have found that our Shorthorns are less fertile, but I don't know if that would hold true for the whole breed, ours are more of the clubbiers lines.  We have been told that the 3rd flush is the best flush so don't stop at 1 or you'll never know her potential.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

We didn't get any embryos viable or not.  She is at cross country and I know that they know what they are doing.  Just frustrating when it is your first time flushing a cow and it goes this way.  It was also her first time being flushed.  Thanks for all the help

 

[itk]

If it is Hank's sister you are trying to flush I would get nervous to. I hope you have better luck on the next try.

 

[Cowboy]

For ITK -- just so every one knows -- the center you mentioned in SW Ne was probably the Curtis Ne place. Unfortunately -- I haven't had the pleasure of doing any owrk for you folks.

SRU-- hey bub -- thanks for the comment. That "Other" cow was carrying a dead fetus for a year when we were finally contacted, it was kind of mind boggling how she was never diagnosed correctly. However, we got the dumb thing out, cleaned her up -- actually flushed her within 45 days and she bred back and calved!!! on her first het after! I was really happy for them, she only had 4 embryos on that flush, but they were good!

Any way -- as far as not getting any eggs the first time out -- that IS unusual but it happens. Some times the timing of the shot sequence was off a day or two -- and then they will not work. I know Dr. Gray -- he's been around the horn a few times so if you give him time, eventually they will get you sometihng. Happens here a little too -- especially if the cow comes in after they had seen the heat -- we use a special nutritional program here and it takes a while for them to get acclimated. Lots of donors are being done right out of the pasture or lot, with no care before they get here. Not always the best thing!

Best of luck -- keep your chin up -- most donors will work if given a chance. Keep in mind -- LARGE doses are not the answer -- I know lots of folks in this business, some just think big is better -- I do not. Thus the 31 egg flush -- and then -0- -- they will pay you back -- sooner or later!

Terry

 

[itk]

He worked at Frontier Genetics for a year after leaving NCTA (and a very successful judging career). If you will open a branch a little further east we have 2 cows we need to get flushed any day now. We are blessed that we have 2 outstanding ET facilities within a hour and a half of us. If diesel ever goes down in price we will take a cow out there for you someday.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I am keeping my fingers crossed.  I need some good luck after the month that I have had.

 

[Doc]

Just talked to Dr Hannon. He flushed our Augusta Pride 230 cow today. Got 19 good ones with 1 straw of Super Dazzler semen(1/4 cc). 1st flush he's done for us. Tickled to death. Wish they would all go that good, but I've had plenty of busts also.

 

[Jill]

He worked at Frontier Genetics for a year after leaving NCTA (and a very successful judging career). If you will open a branch a little further east we have 2 cows we need to get flushed any day now. We are blessed that we have 2 outstanding ET facilities within a hour and a half of us. If diesel ever goes down in price we will take a cow out there for you someday.

Ditto, although we are very happy with Cross Country, froze 16 last time we heard, they were still going through them when he left.

 

[uluru]

Cowboy

How far is McCook from Bakenhaus' at Columbus?

........Bob

 

[Cowboy]

Bob -- I don't know the exact mileage from up there, but it would have to be close to 250 I'm guessing. We are bout 3 plus hours west of York Ne, and Columbus is north and east of there some more!

We are about as far in the SW corner if Neb as one can get -- only 4.5 miles north of the border of Kansas, and about 75 miles or so from going into Colorado over at the west end of the pan handle!

I picked the least populated cow area of the state I think -- at least for the ones that I would need as customers here. Gets frustrating, and now with fuel?????? who knows hey??

We need to all start trying to breed a bunch of cows that as they mature grow WINGS -- and then instead of breaking them to lead, teach them to fly!! Yippeeeeee!  (clapping) (clapping)

My luck they would burn up all thier eggs expelling too much energy -- meybe one of those Methane after burners would work out good too hey?? hehehe

Thanks folks -- another day in the books!

Terry

Congrats on the good flush Jill -- and Doc -- Dr Chuck is a great guy, an excellent practitioner, and one of the best friends I know without ever actually meeting him in person -- we talk all the time!