Food for thought... or just one man's opinion.

[RyanChandler]

  I argue that SHAPE of a calf is more important than the weight. 

I've never pulled a calf under 70 lbs.  I've pulled many over 90.  Coincidence?  I would assume there is the same variation in shape among 70lb calves as there is among 90lb calves.


 

 

[beebe]

BTDT do you really think that when your cows are out on grass that your 2000 lb. cow does not eat more grass than your 1400 lb. cows?  If you have a quarter of grass how many 2000lb. cows can you put on it compared to the number of 1400 lb cows that it would carry?  Like I said we get to do it how we want and that is how it should be.  Around here a 500 lb. calf usually brings a little more per pound than a 550 and if you get more pounds of calf per acre and I don't have to pull calves it seems like a winner all around.  It is a good conversation, I am glad I found this forum.

 

[vc]

While we're on the topic of bigger cow verses smaller cow, how does the easy keeping cow and harder doing cow come into play. I have one cow who is larger framed I would say when she is heavy with calf she pushes 1600 and when she is not is between 1450 and 1500, she can run with smaller cows 1100 to 1200 on our lovely So-cal pastures and still be in better condition then the smaller framed cows. Now to consume more groceries she would have to work harder to find then, but she looks like the kid who has Ding Dongs, Who Who's, and Snickers hidden under his mattress at fat camp, when the rest look like the winner of biggest loser. Can she really be consumming that much more or does she convert what she takes in more efficiently? If they all have to consume 30% percent of their body weight to maintain, a smaller cow should consume less, but are there not cows out there that can do the same on lets say 25% or even 20%. and if these cows can do that and still produce the same calf as the cow on 30% would you not want to breed for the cows who can do it on the lower percentage of intake?
Granted when there is an abundance if feed I bet my cow eats more then the others, but she balloons up as well if we let her.
In our area, the grass is green from January through May (when we get normal rain) The rest of the summer is pretty dry, and the creek beds are about the only place with new growth.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Lots of good points in terms of cows fitting every management system. Vc broadens the discussion from cow size to more important and many times covered on here of cow type. Big or small we need cattle that are efficient. For example the emblazon cattle make wonderful looking females, they are moderate frame, wide based, and outside of type I think the majority would agree these are nice cattle. On "efficiency" tests (I don't believe RFI is the key and I don't beleive it is measuring everything but for the example thats where I'm getting it from) Emblazon cattle are the least efficient. Perhaps this is because on foraging diets alone cattle need increased appetite and be able to gain lots of fat on green grass as it will melt off later in the year and they will have to draw from these reserves at that time. Flip the coin on the otherside of the table and I do a lot of nutrition work for people and we as a company are always finding that most cattle are blowing the expected adg from nrc out of the water. These high growth genetics are gaining more with less. To translate that to the cow size the right kind of growth cattle should be able to gain flesh back in a much shorter amount of time on considerably lower quality feeds. Cow size is merely a means to an end, everyone wants to be the most profitable for the resources they have. I would suggest building a program, culling extensively and let the cows tell you whats the "right" size.

 

[knabe]

is a grow on less cow and her genetics a maintain on less cow?


ie can she turn on and off her appetite based on need?


i guess i would like to see a pinpointer waterer in a pasture environment that tracks a cow's weight over time.  the thing about the pasture pinpointer, is that a weight is taken every time they drink and reduces the error of sampling just weighing them on a monthly basis which could be affected by sickness, how recently they drank etc. of course this doesn't track how much they ate, but it's a starting point for thinking differently. i think i would add in a chewing monitor as well.


http://www.bovinevetonline.com/bv-magazine/Pull-and-treat-from-your-desk-221816931.html


i can't find the chewing monitor on line. i know, it doesn't weigh the grass. i haven't seen anything yet that will unless you put it in the bunk, then they eat something besides the grass.

 

[beebe]

vc you make a very good point.  I think there are easier keeping cattle just like there are easier keeping people.  I happen to be one of the easier keeping people.  Yes we should be selecting for that quality.  I never cull a cow based on size, if she is working she has a home.  I am trying to reduce frame size with my bull selection.