? for the Shorthorn Experts.

[nate53]

What bull or bulls are at the top of the breed for marbling?  Birthweight needs to be reasonable (less than 95), docility needs to be excellent, moderate growth, capable of siring a high percentage of prime calves (choice is not good enough to qualify).  A more terminal animal, maternal traits would be nice but not necessary.  Ideas?

 

[sue]

Deerpark Improver 57 - Top 1% of the breed and 80% acc, not sure if you want to try a THC and all of the other issues.. I am curious if anyone knows of his progeny on feed back in the day? 

RS DV 729 01 034 04 - Top 25% of the breed with 69% acc,  I know you used a son of 034 ? Maybe try to AI to the sire?

RS DV 307 335 01 -  Top 2% of the breed with 70% acc,

 

[RyanChandler]

What bull or bulls are at the top of the breed for marbling?  Birthweight needs to be reasonable (less than 95), docility needs to be excellent, moderate growth, capable of siring a high percentage of prime calves (choice is not good enough to qualify).  A more terminal animal, maternal traits would be nice but not necessary.  Ideas?

I think you'll find that by selecting for maternal traits, you'll indirectly get the marbling you want.  But as with anything, keep in mind that antagonisms are what create the obstacles. 

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

There is also another sneed bull that's in the top 4% for marbling. Maybe you've heard of him too?


Has there ever been a sure identified in the shorthorn breed that could hit prime consistently ? If so I've never heard of it.

Not hard if you look at the angus breed. Without looking I can name a few. Summitcrest High Prime. GAR Predestined. CA Future Direction. But I got nothing on shorthorns. So basically what we've got here is a slab sided TH carrier and Rob Sneed.

That's sad. All I know is shorthorns cut great. In fact Nate that last bull I butchered out of clementine and that other sneed bull cut excellent. And tasted even better. Marbled great on grass alone. Another breeder in Illinois is tickled pink with his son of that other sneed bull too. Heifers even calved unassisted.

What are you trying to do with your prime grading calves?

 

[Dale]

Sue, what about Captain Obvious?  His marbling is good and so is his disposition.

Besides Sneed cattle, have a look at Homedale Blizzard & Homedale Creole (young bull through Genex).  We have a Blizzard 4-H steer that is promising!

Another bull that is close to what your needing is FHF Rodeo's Hope.  One or two of the Saskvalley bulls might work.

We watch marbling due to doing some freezer beef and to keep our Shorthorns strong, where Shorthorns excel, in grading!

 

[GM]

TGCC is right in that it's a shame that Shorthorn breeders can't rattle off 10 names instantly who have a proven track record.  The good news is that most shorthorns can grade prime fairly quickly compared to other breeds.  Picking the right one should be easy if you're also looking at calving ease.

I attached an image from the shorthorn website that shows every sire w/ >0.3 marbling.  It's fascinating to look at.  God only knows how accurate it is - aka that's the problem.  The Shorthorn Experts that your reaching out to should agree.  The data says one thing, and the anecdotal experience may say another (but, will probably not rule out the data).  Data lends credibility to an argument if its credible - in the absence of credible data you can say the same thing about others experience mixed with your trust  

In the image you can see the Irish THC sire Deerpark Improver 57 and his most notable THC son CF Fortune.  The bull with the "best" marbling is Mollies Defender Adair who is very interesting considered that he would be classified as "native" these days and he's the "grandsire" of HS Rodeo Drive 062WR who also has bad ass numbers & accuracy outside of calving ease.  Sutherland Titleist 269 ET is a late frame score era bull that is an asterisk free son of Titleist and Betty Prophet who goes back to dual, irish, and native genetics - no maine or chi in his pedigree.  Waukuru and Sneed are considered as being focused on carcass and both have bulls showing up.  Both Waukuru bulls are sired by the ASH Valley Duty 9586 bull.  The RS bull is sired by Sutherland Titleist 269 ET and has a lot of registered progeny listed on the site.

I hope this thread helps you!

 

[Dale]

I'm not 50 miles away from home, so I'm not an expert. 

Roanoke Flashback and RB Eagle 226 are 2 bulls with marbling in the top 5% of the breed.  Bulls like Surge (Mollies Defender Adair)  and Titleist 269 certainly have the marbling, if you can find the semen.  Frank Kaehler probably still has semen on Surge. 

 

[nate53]

I think I'll look into the  Mollies Defender Adair bull and see if there is any semen around anywhere.  Look's like there was a calf born in 2013.  Does anybody have a pic or any idea of what he looked like?  Waukaru told me some of their prime calves have came out of animals that have had Rodeo Drive in the background a ways back.   

On the other bulls does anyone have any kill data, that would reflect ability to sire prime calves? 

Brock you hit the nail on the head with the angus vrs. shorthorn.  We are just selling on the grid, prime was an extra $21 per hundred.  Compared to choice only being a couple bucks per hundred. (couple weeks ago)

I have sold around 30 head (over a 4 year period) of purebred shorty's on the grid and not one of them went prime.  Some shorty sired calves out of Amerifax - angus cows have graded prime, but a lower percent compared to angus sired out of the same cows. 


I wouldn't mind making a bull of my liking but would like an idea of where to start.  We've used Sneed, Lakeside genetics (mainly to save females out of), and the steers are grading consistently choice with a small percent prime. 

Thanks for all the info.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Titleist 269 would be interesting. David ragsdale told me long ago if that bull was black he'd be famous for his carcass data. I forgot about him. I'd give him a shot. Mr Ragsdale is a good fella and I'm sure you can buy semen for a reasonable price.


If defenders Adair was rodeo drives's grandsire, where does the Chi come in?

 

[GM]

I think I'll look into the  Mollies Defender Adair bull and see if there is any semen around anywhere.  Look's like there was a calf born in 2013.  Does anybody have a pic or any idea of what he looked like?  Waukaru told me some of their prime calves have came out of animals that have had Rodeo Drive in the background a ways back.   

On the other bulls does anyone have any kill data, that would reflect ability to sire prime calves? 

Brock you hit the nail on the head with the angus vrs. shorthorn.  We are just selling on the grid, prime was an extra $21 per hundred.  Compared to choice only being a couple bucks per hundred. (couple weeks ago)

I have sold around 30 head (over a 4 year period) of purebred shorty's on the grid and not one of them went prime.  Some shorty sired calves out of Amerifax - angus cows have graded prime, but a lower percent compared to angus sired out of the same cows. 


I wouldn't mind making a bull of my liking but would like an idea of where to start.  We've used Sneed, Lakeside genetics (mainly to save females out of), and the steers are grading consistently choice with a small percent prime. 

Thanks for all the info.

You're right, Mollies Defender Adair (Surge as he was known) has great numbers.  Too bad there aren't more similar to him, but not born in the late 70's.  I understand Haumont tried him but stuck with their home growns afterward. He was super popular before the frame score bulls.

 

[GM]

Titleist 269 would be interesting. David ragsdale told me long ago if that bull was black he'd be famous for his carcass data. I forgot about him. I'd give him a shot. Mr Ragsdale is a good fella and I'm sure you can buy semen for a reasonable price.


If defenders Adair was rodeo drives's grandsire, where does the Chi come in?

The dam side...ultrabrite allegedly...but red calves born in 87 with notorious prefixes are anyone's guess as to their background

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

It's like who shot JFK. theories abound. But who really knows. I may rub people the wrong way but I love shorthorns. It's deep down in me somewhere. I've ate a lot of different breeds. Shorthorns are great. Period. And customers who have no clue agree with me. It's kea me question lots of things. It motivates me as well. I've been in the toilet but I climbed out. Big things are coming and shorthorns will be a key piece. I don't think reaching a consistent prime carcass is far off. I think the breed just hasn't focused on it. It hasn't drove the bus. We all know who is behind the wheel. But my god, how much money has been left on the table to win a purple ribbon? We will butcher a lot of shorthorns in the coming years. I'll figure it out myself if I have to. I want a bloodline that hits the bullseye on grass. Whoever makes it will reap the rewards I believe. Even more so if they don't ignore the things that make shorthorns a maternal breed.

 

[tamarack]

Look to some Australian genetics they have a lot of good bulls for finishing on grass

 

[jaimiediamond]

I'm most familiar with Western Canadian genetics herds like ourselves, Crooked Post, Eionmor, Glenford, Horseshoe Creek, Northern as well as many others. 

I would think that A&T Renegade would be a bull that would have outstanding marbling due to how his sire was bred and selected for. He definitely has the BW from what JTM has been posting.

 

[huntaway]

Searched some of those animals in the Australian system which was interesting.
Rodeo drive your top bull was 0.0 for IMF 95th percentile with high accuracy (bit scary the difference)
Titilest +.5 about breed average high accuracy
improver+.9 low accuracy.
Talking to some Australian breeders they think breed average is plenty to grade well under there finishing systems. I think for us in New Zealand under grass finishing we may need more.
When looking at possible North American sires I have little faith in carcass figures and the fact so many of your catalogues don't include them prob shows the faith you have in them

 

[RyanChandler]

O0

 

[oakview]

You might talk to Sho-Me Farms in Columbia, Missouri.  The last I knew, he had his own meat market, raised his own beef to sell through it, and worked very closely with the University of Missouri on shear testing, etc.  He had indentified the genetics that worked for that segment and had been very successful.  You might be surprised at what worked for him.  He sold more beef through his meat market in a year than most of us will in a lifetime.  They are dispersing in May, unfortunately.  They've been at it a long time.  Check out their website. 

 

[sue]

Sue, what about Captain Obvious?  His marbling is good and so is his disposition.

Besides Sneed cattle, have a look at Homedale Blizzard & Homedale Creole (young bull through Genex).  We have a Blizzard 4-H steer that is promising!

Another bull that is close to what your needing is FHF Rodeo's Hope.  One or two of the Saskvalley bulls might work.

We watch marbling due to doing some freezer beef and to keep our Shorthorns strong, where Shorthorns excel, in grading!

I posted two Sneed bulls that actually have grid data - Im sure Rob would also have grid information on other AI sires. To my knowledge there has been no 329 sired cattle on feed with kill data?  A&T Captain Obvious and Lakeside Payday together averaged 92% choice with 1 prime and 2 select in the last load. Payday all YG 3's  average BF . 48 and Captain 65% YG 3, 29% YG 4 average BF .60 . The real question is "who has consistantly collected grid data in the shorthorn breed ? "  Many have ultrasounded but how many have sold bulls and know how the cattle have done? 

 

[RyanChandler]

Very few. That's why it's preposterous to talk about these bulls in terms of their Epd percentile.

 

[r.n.reed]

So my question is this,Does the fact that a specific animal consistently produces low to avg.choice animals guarantee the fact that with a change in the feeding program or extension of a feeding program,a high percentage of those offspring will go prime?