Frame scores - how small is too small?

[trevorgreycattleco]

Can you really compare a elephant who has been breeding by natures selection process for millions of years and cattle who have had people screwing them up for hundreds of years? Your theory makes semse but I dont know if it can work with cattle. 1200 lb cows compared to 2000 lb cows? how would that work out? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Mill Iron A]

That equation works for any animal. Its not about human selection but more about the basic science created by god that we are trying to quantify,  this is why in colder climates most clients I talk to believe that 1200 is too small and 1350 is about right.

 

[CAB]

One of the better threads posted up here for some time. I like 5.8 to 6.3 framed cattle & always have. It's why I have always had a  harder time using the smaller clubbie bred bulls.

 

[DRB]

It seems like there is a post regarding ideal frame score every couple months.  I think I have linked to this research in prior posts, but here it is again. 
If you have the time it is worth the read - http://www.bifconference.com/bif2010/documents/08_johnson_radakovich.pdf

Here is excerpt that is most germane to the discussions in this thread:

Metabolic Weight versus Live Weight. The average elephant weights 220,000 times as
much as the average mouse, but requires only about 10,000 times as much energy in the form of
food calories to sustain itself. This is because of the mathematical and geometric relationship
between body surface area and volume, which in biology is articulated by Kleiber’s Theory. It
states that metabolic weight = live weight^.75 (Kleiber, 1932).

[size=10pt][size=10pt]Essentially, the bigger the animal, the more efficiently it uses energy.
For instance, eighty seven 1200 lb cows require the same amount of food energy for maintenance as one hundred 1000 lb cows (Table 1).

This is a hypothetical but realistic scenario - do you want 87 cows or 100 cows? 
87 cows (1200 pound cows) - wean 600 pound calves = 52,200 pounds
100 cows (1000 pound cows) - wean 500 pound calves =50,000 pounds

Chances are that the calves out the 1200 pound cow will outperform the calves after weaning as well.

So the difference is 4 more 1200lb cows vs the 1:1 3% across the board maintenance which would give you 83 cows.

You missed the negative $/lb margin for heavier calves, completing the math for last weeks Ontario stocker market ( http://www.cattle.guelph.on.ca/markets/weekly_reports/2012/20120210.pdf ):

87 x 600 lb calves x 1.51 per lb = $78822
100 x 500 lb calves x  1.70 per lb = $85000

That's a bigger price spread than I usually see, normally more like down $0.10 per cwt increase.  But hmmm, even with 10c difference those lighter calves made more $.

There are a lot of factor that play here, I'm not saying it's this simplistic.  But producing maximum lbs or max $ per acre in a limited feed scenario (I only have the land I have, and don't want to buy dumptrucks of corn...) is what I'm interested in.

David

 

[Mill Iron A]

Poor marketing is no excuse. Keep those calves until yearnings or retain and you will easily make up that difference.

 

[Aussie]

DRB. That is the same argument you used with the table on the first page. Working of your figures with the price grid I supplied those lowline cattle made $3000 more but as I and Mill Iron A have pointed out as the calves grow out to slaughter the small ones are left behind. You may make a profit this year but will struggle to get repeat buyers next year.

 

[hamburgman]

DRB must not have enough ground to background yearlings, nor a group large enough for a feedlot. Hence why he wants the smaller framed  cattle.  Pry just doing the ol matching your cows to your environment huh DRB?

 

[kfacres]

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=37038.msg323322

Link to a post I just made concerning a couple of graphs I created a bit ago-- compares frame score to feed efficiency- during the 08-11 WIU bull tests

 

[DRB]

Sure guys, jump all over the small-moderate frame guy.  I was only pointing out some possibilities.  I don't have any problems with repeat buyers, and the scenario I was proposing was a small-moderate framed commercial cow herd combined with a growthy terminal cross bull (in a cow-calf operation selling stockers at the sales barn).  I don't have a lot of use for a frame 3 bull, and especially not one that won't grow. Same deal on the opposite end, I don't have any use for big old cows that bring in a dinky calf, eat all my grass and don't breed back.  My ideal range is from 4.5-5.5, I need them to grow quickly and finish early on grass and hit that at 18 months +/-.  This means they need to stop growing and start finishing sooner than most I guess.  I have no use for cattle that just keep growing and growing in my scenario.

For sure, match to your environment and goals - to each his own. 

I don't understand the poor marketing comment - so everyone who sells 5 weight cattle is a poor marketer?  The only reason feeders can justify paying close to $2.00/lb for these calves is because they can make some of that back on the cheap gains to make it pencil out - so in affect you are already getting paid for cheap gains and don't have to do anything yourself.  Profit at the moment is selling stockers, think feeders and packers margins are pretty thin.