Galant Semen

[justintime]

The first Charolais cattle I remember seeing around here were brought in by a farmer about 30 miles from my farm in the early 60s. The first imported French Charolais I remember here in Western Canada were in the later 60s. I remember several importations during the mid to late 60s and they continued to come from France through the 70s.

In regards to Bar 5 Simmental, it was founded by 4 Shorthorn breeders and a Polled Hereford breeder in Manitoba. John and Mac Draper( Rothbury), Ross Thomas ( Thomas Farms) , Bob Gordon ( Kinnaber) and Donn Mitchell ( Klondike P Herefords) and Ross Mitchell ( a brother of Donn Mitchell who operated a feedlot). The ownership structure changed after a few years and Bob Gordon's share in Bar 5 was purchased by Wilf Davis. Originally John and Mac Draper had a share in Bar 5 between them but they eventually purchased Ross Mitchells share so that they both had a full share. When I worked at their sales, I would go and calve cows for 2 weeks, and then come home for a week and then return for two weeks before their sale. At that time, they were running about 400-500 fullblood and purebred Simmental cows and they also had several hundred head of Simmentals at a ranch in Texas. They purchased cattle in sales all over N America and many of the US purchases were sent to the Texas ranch.
I have lots of memories of some of those historic sales. I remember hearing about a poker game the night before sale day that at one point in time had $80,000 of cash on the table. These sales are even more amazing when you consider the prices back then converted into today's dollars. Simply incredible.
I remember the guys at Bar 5 oftentimes commenting that their best graded up Simmentals went back to the Shorthorn females they started with that were bred to Simmental bulls. Even today, it is a super cross.

 

[RyanChandler]

Okay.....just so I get this right......all those full French imported bulls they unloaded in Quebec when the ice broke up on the St Lawrence river and the quarantine was over.....the ones that went to the A.I. Collection facilities and were blood typed/parentage verified.....they somehow had their genetic identities stolen by the much better Mexican percentage ones?....a massive semen fraud occurred??
Just want to understand this correctly....it was your grandfather and his brothers who are the true founding fathers of the Charolais breed in North America??

Don't be smartass-- NO ONE MENTIONED AI BULLS.  My grandpa did bring several fullbood bulls across the MX border as did MANY other people from the 40's through the early 60s.  Even more fullbloods from MX were brought in in the late 60's when the papered French cattle started being imported as now there was 'access' to legitimate papers for these cattle. 

My grandpa purchased a couple full blood bulls and it took him over two years to get the bulls from France through quarantine in Canada and then finally shipped down to Texas.  In fact, he sold almost 200 commercial Hereford cows to import 8 full french cows and 1 bull.


You lose me again with the semen fraud comment.  We're talking walking bulls here.  The Charolais association doesn't require parentage verification even today much less in the mid 60s!  People would Import French bulls and then register the superior calves out of the Mexican imports as full French progeny!  There was no documentation of the Mexican fullbloods many southern ranchers had as they had been smuggled into the country.

 

[redsimmsnangus]

Back to the Simmis - does anyone have experience with Star Palm, especially his daughters?

 

[Simbeef10]

As this continued I thought everyone might like a couple pictures with what were the foundation sires of the Simmental breed.  It is unfortunate that so many purebred breeders have focused so much on calving ease and birth weight, that what was considered a "maternal breed"; can no longer claim that distinction unless they are fullbloods.  Through proper selection, these bulls can still be used, but in the 80s it was all about the frame and style; not performance which is what we have to focus on to be successful.  The knowledge shared here with temperament is interesting as it was not available at the time that some of the bulls were popular.  I have heard that Ueli would give some issues like Achilles and would be interested to know if that is true before I use his semen.  There was a question about Mucho Galant, so I included his picture from the 79 select Sires book. 

As for Star Palm, I have not used him.  I have talked to several fullblood breeders who really like his calves as moderate frame and meaty. 

File is too big, I'll see if I can reduce the size and post soon

 

[caledon101]

I've heard of Star Palm but don't recall seeing any progeny. Based on what JIT has shared with us I wouldn't be surprised if Ueli was also temperamental. It's hard to believe that the experience realized in the quarantine and A.I. facilities made them all so miserable and mean??
If I was a fullblood enthusiast again I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to use Ueli again. If you can find some KMR Monarch semen that would be ideal also. There were many sires available but not all caught on. Pacific was another.

They say history is defined as a story or recollection that most people are willing to agree upon. Who really knows what happened 85 years ago along the Mexican border. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Charolais and Simmental genetics arrived hundreds of years ago with French explorers but it was either never documented or, those animals were consumed and never propagated within North America. We certainly know they brought horses.

 

[justintime]

I agree with Caledon on how we arrive at history. His comments made me think about my making a comment to an older breeder about the color pattern of many of my Charolais cows . I said to him that in the summertime, when my Charolais cows are completely shed out, they appeared to have white heads and a creamy ( off white) body color. This man said that I probably had used a Charolais bull or two that went back to some Simmental bloodlines. I asked him what he meant by that and he said that he had spent part of WW 2 in France, and many of the fences were destroyed and many herds of cattle ran together for months at a time. He said he was certain that there was considerable cross over of genetics in these breeds during this time.

In regards to the topic of temperaments of some of these original bulls, I think we have to also remember that many of these animals were selected from herds that had been considered to be dairy animals for many generations. It is well known that some of the worst temperaments are from dairy bulls. I remember visiting a dairy AI stud several years ago that was built almost like a fortress. It was very well designed as it was built so that the bulls could go to the collection site and back to their pens without being handled. I am sure that some of the imported bulls got some of their temperament issues from quarantine etc, but there were also some bad natured bulls that were born and raised here.
I can remember some Shorthorn bulls back in the 70s and 80s who developed untrustworthy attitudes, that were sired by Milking Shorthorn sires. I had a bull here that I showed all over North America, and who was quiet enough to halter out in a pasture. One day I haltered him and was leading him to a pen when he quickly turned on me and put me through a shed wall. He has been so quiet before this, that I came back through the hole and picked up the halter lead again. He hit me again and knocked me down. I am quit sure by the way he was flipping me through the air and hitting me again, that I would have been killed if I had not been able to get two fingers in his nose ring. Even though we had many semen orders on this bull, I hauled his ass to the auction market that day. Something snapped in his brain and the auction mart owner said he was one of the meanest bulls he had ever seen walk through the sale barn. Before that day, he had been one of the easiest bulls I have ever handled. I am not sure what the connection is between high milking breeds and temperament issues, but I think there appears to be a link.
I can remember working with some really "goofy" natured animals at production sales back in the 70s and 80s. I remember one Simmental bull in particular that probably would have become a killer, that tried to jump a pen on the way to the sale ring and broke a back leg in the process. He would hunt people and we were told by his owner to not let anyone go into his pen. He was a full blood bull that was just a yearling, and at that time he probably would have sold for $25,000 or more simply because he was a fullblood. When he broke his leg, the sale crew were almost cheering.

 

[husker1]

Great posts, guys.  Appreciate you sharing all of this information.  Very interesting.

My experience with the Simmental breed started several years later...I'm more of the Achilles Superstar, CPS, Highwayman, Pineview Jazz, RBR Papillion, etc. generation, though we had a bunch of Signal cows around.  And the Signals were great cows.

Gonewest, that last black baldy pictured is spot-on; I'd take 100 just like her!

<beer>

 

[vc]

Justintime, dairy bull was what I was thinking. A good Friend from high school had a dairy outside of town, he had a red Holstein bull calf (he was attempting to breed a herd of the reds) that he bottle raised, halter broke and showed as a calf up to a yearling, nice easy going bull when he was a calf, once he was turned out with the cows he turned to a beast, tried to kill my friend 2 months into running with the cows, had it not been for the Queensland Heeler (that's what we called them back then) flat out taking the bull head on he would have been dead. Bull went down the road, seems like the bulls made it a year or 2 at most before he had to send them because of temperament.
My grandfather was a dairyman all his life and when we were young he would let us help him push cows to the milk barn, he would not let us push cows from the pen that a bull was in with the cows, ever.

 

[caledon101]

Husker!....I remember those old bulls!  I owned an Achilles Superstar and had to ship her for slaughter as a bred heifer. She was just crazy....dangerous actually. Maybe I just had a bad one.

And what JIT relayed makes so much sense. Fences across Europe must have been run over and ruined in many places. I'm sure being a farmer in France or Germany was no fun during the war. Those people were probably grateful just to survive with their families intact.
It really ignites that whole passionate and emotional discussion around the definition of purebred and fullblood. I've always taken the position that there's no such thing as 100% pure. Even a gold bar has .999 stamped on it. JMO

 

[caledon101]

I recall visiting Western Breeders in AB years ago and being told that any employee who set foot in a pen with a bull was automatically dismissed. Too many horror stories.
And yes....dairy bulls are not fun; especially a jersey bull I was once told.
Simmentals were used as triple purpose animals in Europe for centuries which I think is why they became so popular. Hard to imagine putting a harness on goofy oxen and working with them. Or, trying to hand milk a crazy cow. The majority of Simmental cattle are really good to work with. That's always been my experience anyway.

 

[justintime]

I recall visiting Western Breeders in AB years ago and being told that any employee who set foot in a pen with a bull was automatically dismissed. Too many horror stories.
And yes....dairy bulls are not fun; especially a jersey bull I was once told.
Simmentals were used as triple purpose animals in Europe for centuries which I think is why they became so popular. Hard to imagine putting a harness on goofy oxen and working with them. Or, trying to hand milk a crazy cow. The majority of Simmental cattle are really good to work with. That's always been my experience anyway.

You are right. Most Simmentals are great to work with. I imagine there were some goofy oxen, but I suspect they were used to feed the families. If they were castrated young and allowed to grow up to be full grown oxen, I expect most of them were like family pets. I think the bulls may have been somewhat different. I remember seeing pictures of Simmental herd bulls  with a large logging chain around their horns and down through their nose ring and then tethered to something to allow them to eat grass. I also remember a family friend's pictures after returning from Europe buying cattle, of several mature bulls with large chains around their horns and through their rings, and that is how they led them around. I guess they did not want to take any chances.

 

[cbcr]

Another thing to point out, is back in the 70's when the exotic breeds were so popular that people were breeding to almost anything to cash in.  One thing that happened is that because Docility wasn't thought of these foreign studs were basically dumping some of their unwanted semen on us.  Yes there were some really good bulls too!

It is really ironic that back when all of the Continentals came in they were some big cattle.  Over the years they have all moderated their frame and size and now many of our English breeds are bigger framed and sized than the Continentals.

 

[RyanChandler]

It is really ironic that back when all of the Continentals came in they were some big cattle.  Over the years they have all moderated their frame and size and now many of our English breeds are bigger framed and sized than the Continentals.

Yup,  MARC data suggest Angus females now average the largest mature weight.  Followed by Hereford and then Charolais.  Avg Angus female is over 1500lbs.  Maybe a 1/4 of them capable of weaning 50% of their bodyweight.  It's important to remember that the jack of all trades is the master of none.  Breeds need to stick to their your strengths and specialize. 

 

[vc]

My first steer ever was a 3/4 Sim, that as he matured decided he would rather kill me than look at me, broke my hand penned me to the fence, ended up just feeding out, no fair that year. I fed him with a bucket in one hand and a 2*4 in the other for the last 3 months. The next year I had a 7/8 Sim one of those dairy marked but he was more of a cream sickle colored calf, he was big. At the fair we would turn the calves in the ring at night to let them run and get there energy out, my buddy said he wanted to try and ride the steer, so we through a lead around his chest tied it down and he jumped up on him, well all hell never happened, he stool there looked up at my buddy and started walking around, next thing we know were giving every little 4Her a ride around the ring, he was mellower than an old baby sitter saddle horse.

I did learn a good lesson from that first steer, I knew what to look out for when selecting a calf, I had over 12 calves during my showing years all Sim, only one was mean the rest were easy going to the point of being friendly. My last one would eat a snowcone out of your hand and hide behind me with his head in my back if he was scared

 

[caledon101]

I remember in the 70's when I was at U of G and we visited what was then United Breeders in Guelph. I can recall our host telling us the worst bulls they had to handle were the Jerseys. I recall this one little bugger in a pen and his eyes looked like they were going to pop out if his head; he was so worked up with all of us being in that barn. The Holstein bulls weren't a whole lot better either. Some of us wondered how these guys managed to handle them safely. I'm not surprised people have been killed at collection facilities.
Our fullblood herd of Simmentals was a mixture of French, Swiss and German genetics. We had some great success and enjoyment with them.
One thing I never had to worry about was predators. Coyotes would walk right past the herd as they lay in the pasture with their calves chewing their cud and resting. The cows weren't the least bit concerned. But! If a stray dog was spotted it was game on. They would guard the calves while one or two cows would take off and try to run them down.
Coyotes were okay.....domestic dogs....nope,

 

[aj]

I remember that the Simmental were considered THE maternal breed of the EXOTICS. Chi,Limi,Charolais,Maines etc.. I remember alpine polled proto.......monarch......eagle......mr. clean. I think eagle and mr clean were full brothers. Eagle was great calving ease while mr. clean was not. I think they were purebred as opposed to fullbloods. Dad started using simmis on shorties in the mid 70's.

 

[Lucky_P]

Every animal on this place traces back to Simmental bulls used back in the '80s - Alpine Polled Proto, DS Pollfleck, DS Polltime, Generation III, ABR Sir Arnold's Image.  Kept back and used homebred SimAngus bulls that concentrated the Proto & Arnold lineages for several generations, before going back to the 'black' side to try to accomodate local market preferences - but there's still a lot of mousy/brown/gray cows in the herd, thanks to those old diluted yellow Simmental bulls.
After 10 years or so of using Angus over those old linebred SimAngus cows, we've gone back to Simmental sires over the remaining % Simmental cows, - and Shorthorns on the higher % Angus cows.

Now... on the dairy bull deal.  Lack of selection for docility may be a part of the mix - but the other part is... we take those bull calves away from the dam on Day One, and hand-rear them in close proximity to humans - they're not out on pasture with their dam.  They have little fear - and once they reach maturity_ no respect for humans.  We're regarded as a potential rival - and no man alive is a match for 1600-2400 lbs of testosterone-fueled bone and muscle in the form of a bull.
We see similar behavior in hand reared llamas/alpacas - and call it 'berserk male' syndrome; they're dangerous - just not as big and powerful.

 

[justintime]

I think the " Berserk male" syndrome could also be used in describing some of the human race!

 

[Simbeef10]

AJ is right with Eagle and Mr Clean being full brothers and one calving ease while the other was growth.  Some of the best steers we raised were Proto calves out of Bold Leader cows.  Butts and guts.  I'm breeding some back to Bold Leader now and then will use some Alpine Polled Proto on the daughters.  Our yield and grade cattle do really well that way.  If any of you have heard of Frenchie - he crossed really well with the Leader cows too.

 

[Mark H]

The fact that many of the imported breeds that had dispostion problems were dual purpose doesn't explain everything.  By the far the worse offender in this department the Chianina has the least milk production I know of for an import.  I was told by the Italians in selecting a drought animal they didn't want them too doggy around people
By the way if you are looking at using fullblood Simmental bulls things have improved greatly in bull quality.  Also not all the good bulls bull are full Fleck of South African breeding.