HC Vanguard 22Z

[Doc]

What happened to the one post there this morning that xbar was talking about how many calves he had sired by Vanguard in like a 40 day window after he got him home and I want to say the heaviest one was like 85lbs ???

 

[mark tenenbaum]

That was 2014 and the thread shows no signs of any impure thoughts or deeds It  looked like the calves that were registered and weighed were in the 80s to 90s which most calves are-and every thing was grand in EXBAR land  2015 is when some of the big bw bull calves showed up and JIT suddenly  became an insideous evil being who masterfully and intentionally made the genetics change somehow to bigger BWS in one year? O0

 

[doc-sun]

What happened to the one post there this morning that xbar was talking about how many calves he had sired by Vanguard in like a 40 day window after he got him home and I want to say the heaviest one was like 85lbs ???

Maybe an expert deleted it. When I found the post by googling 'hc vanguard bull', the post at the bottom of page 1 was about the semen. The Knabe posts that were at the top of page 2 are now at the bottom of page 1. How can you rely on an expert who would do that?

 

[RyanChandler]

All the purebred calves are recorded with birthweights if you’re curious. 

JIT suddenly became an insideous evil being who masterfully and intentionally made the genetics change somehow to bigger BWS in one year? O0

The only grievance again is the disassociation by the breeder with these results.  My results are perfectly consistent with the people across the globe who have tried both major Leroy and as in the other post about asterisk free shorthorns where Aaron Rasmussen A&T speaks to the huge bithweights with the last call line.  Raymond Carnes another sh breeder in TX imported a major Leroy son two years earlier than I did and repeatedly expressed the same problem to JIT. I was standing outside WHR sale when he personally told me this.  Of course not. It was just swept under the rung and continued giving the impression that everything was just Rosie and wonderful and no problems at all with these genetics.  Fast forward a decade and I now longer wonder why there’s not a single whr herd in the country this would use that any of these genetics.  It’s not that they never tried, it’s that they did try And the results were so unlike what they were promoted as they never touched them again.  From Australia to South America to North America it’s all the same story.

 

[doc-sun]

That was 2014 and the thread shows no signs of any impure thoughts or deeds It  looked like the calves that were registered and weighed were in the 80s to 90s which most calves are-and every thing was grand in EXBAR land  2015 is when some of the big bw bull calves showed up and JIT suddenly  became an insideous evil being who masterfully and intentionally made the genetics change somehow to bigger BWS in one year? O0

year 2: 95 lb birth weight bull*, bred to heifers* , maybe cows too fat*, calved mid march on after all that good grass was in their belly not jan/feb*.........etc etc etc*.

*management problem

ADMIT IT AND HUSH. We all know you twist the facts to justify your view. I think you know good cattle but you don't post constructively and we are fed up with you trashing JIT who also knows good cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

THERE'S NOTHING TO TWIST - "THESE ARE GENETICS THAT SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION EVEN ON MATURE COWS." 

THAT'S THE WHOLE STORY RIGHT THERE. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

99% of all Shorthorn bulls fall into that category There are active cows yet out of Leroy and Werenacres OffRoad- Lynnette Jane on here has some of the best Shorthorn based f 1s in existence and has a bunch of Leroy daughters that have done real well-and are calving every year You can see some on her thread from a couple weeks ago  The Off road bws seemed to follow Leroy-Even if they werent ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE-Off Road had some big BW Cattle in his pedigree and was bred to Solution -Salute whatever Margies etc They were all the rage : and no doubt it would compound CE potential problems Even  with a "so-called" CE bull much less him Off Road was a massive moose I saw his full sister at Wernickes with a very young calf I think out of HFS Whata Bull-really good not a monster at all O0

 

[RyanChandler]

I guess all the bulls I used prior and since all fall into that 1% as I haven't had any other birth weight issues. 

JSF Red Rebel
JR Drover 05X
YY Cartwright
JSF Jazz Star 73U
JSF/RB Proud Jake 49U
JSF Maestro 35U
Wolf Ridge President 1A
Waukaru Forward 4003
Leveldale Genesis
Saskvalley Alamo
XBAR Endeavor
Saskvalley Editor

Ive used all these shorthorn bulls as walking sires over purebred and brangus/angus plus type commercial cows and haven't have any birth weight issues with any of them.  Ive weighed most every calf born on my place since I was young teen and never had a 100lb calf before Vanguard-- and I thankfully never had any since. 

 

[aj]

I would be scared to death to buy a Shorthorn bull from most all of the Shorthorn breed. I can't trust that they are honest about birth weights. The only people I have trusted to buy a bull from is Lovings.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Did any of the 1 percent bulls sire DAUGHTERS THAT MAY HAVE HAD CALVING PROBLEMS? O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I would be scared to death to buy a Shorthorn bull from most all of the Shorthorn breed. I can't trust that they are honest about birth weights. The only people I have trusted to buy a bull from is Lovings.

Oh shut up with that. Breed one better then. Lovings is a top notch place but so are many others. You bitch about the breed non stop.


I think everyone has made their point here and all are valid. Let’s move on. Lots of good cattle being bred up these days. It would be a damn shame if the breed took another wrong turn over people not using genetics over personal beefs.

The bull JIT sold to Illinois looks like a million bucks in that photo. Let’s see him out on grass with cows and then his calves. Then we can evaluate.

I also recall Mark being way way high on Touchdown and even used him on his cows. That turned out to not be what he had hoped. We need to eliminate that in the breed. We need prepotent and consistency. Only one way I know to do that. Worked with my pigs.

I used Alamo for three years. I kept two really good sons of his. One will see his half sisters as heifers. One will see the main herd in a mob with Big Sky.

Chandlers cows work here. And they work well. They work as good as Lee Miller’s. Lee is one of my favorite people on earth and his cattle are good. He has a great eye for cattle. So does XBar and Mark. Imagine if we all worked together going forward what could be accomplished.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Here is the roan Alamo son I pulled from the Ohio beef expo when the covid went down. He will see cows here instead. Just a yearling but too 5% in all EPD’s. I’ll offer him up against any yearling bull walking.

 

[aj]

I have bred one better. Sodhouse Red Stylist 220. DR4254632

 

[aj]

220

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Agreed-Id still use Touchdown on heifers if they were xbreds or had some clubby-thats what worked when i used him-He just didnt make show calves other than one-Whos first calf dam  was a proud jazzximpact Shaker low BW deal He was a real decent calf-After that he just didnt knick on the other Shorthorns -happens with all cattle-its just part of the deal and you dont know if you dont try We have a real decent Touchdown cow however-out of a commercial simmental X too Once Wernicke gets him settled-That roan will get worked plenty-Between his cows and Probably Hortons HFS What a Bull looked liked a $million as a long yearling-and got run HARD like that at a youing age-Good calves -Took him awhile to come back but he did O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

220

///// OH POOH POOH Hes haf RED Angus-Whats he look like now? IS HE TESTED FOR EVERYTHING? I always liked the Shorts and Maines on his Shorthorn side tho theyd probably even out do Solution RE BWS on the wrong female-Never got to see Warlord or Maine impression WHAT DID THEY LOOK LIKE?-Saw a picture of the Mr man pepper heifer or something at a show maybe 15-or 17  years ago-She was stout- O0

 

[aj]

He looks a bit tough. We have had 3 inches of rain since last August. He's with 50 cows right now. 40 calves on the ground. So next spring we will have over 100 calves to evaluate. I'm not bragging. Dipstick claimed I have never raised anything. I simply replied. I know what his birth was because I weighed him. I apologize for annoying you. He's free of all known Shorthorn and Red Angus defects.

 

[Doc]

I have bred one better. Sodhouse Red Stylist 220. DR4254632

He's more Maine and RA, than he is Shorthorn. You say he is free of everything but he hasn't been tested?? Going back to Warhorse, Suds, & Improver he could PHA, TH or DS or all 3. Nothing in his pedigree that I saw had been tested.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

220

That’s terrible picture to try and evaluate. I thought the pic I posted was bad. I sent DNA in on the town bull. Defect free. He had DS up close in his pedigree. It’s good to know where you stand. Line breeding use to be the way to find genetic defects. Now we have a quicker way.

 

[aj]

Stylist's sire was a purebred Red Red Angus. I had him tested for I think two Red Angus defects. I have spent over 7,000 $ testing for th over the last 10 whatever years. I'll have to look for paper work on the dam she was tested or clean by pedigree. It was probably done by Beever and not the official company. I'll send in a test to the official company this fall. I may draw semen this fall. I'll take bets on his results. It isn't hard to raise genetic defect cattle......unless you are taking short cuts to win in the show ring.