Heat Waves for mommas

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There has been lots of talk about the heat wave daughters ability to raise a calf.    Some say they are fine and some don't agree.  I am curious on how every feels about their heat wave daughters. (pop)

 

[Chap]

i wouldn't make it a habit of keeping them as femailes, but the one we have does a nice job.  I think you need to have some knowledge of their maternal parentage and if they are out of more maternal type cows, you can get along ok.  The problem probably arises from breeding HW to Full Flush, WMW, etc cows and then keeping those terminally bred heifers back for replacements.  Generations of steer makers results in some that don't milk, because nothing in their extended pedigree was ever selected for those maternal traits.  IMHO

 

[Show Heifer]

Funny how we try and make TERMINAL sires into MATERNAL sires.

I have seen heat seeker, and heatwave daughters......and I would rather bet on when the sun was going to burn out as to when they were ever going to a decent cow. Maybe I have higher criteria than most, but, hard to handle, not much milk, and no mothering ability (drop and run)......I expect a lot more from my cows/heifers than that.

 

[shortyjock89]

No one has said anything about making HS and HW into "maternal" sires....but you can't really throw all the heifers out of those bulls into one group can you?  Not every heifer calf out of Cunia, FR Magic, Polleroid, Witch Dr., or Rodeo Drive made great cows....and not every heifer out of a "terminal" bull is s*$%...WMW was regarded as a strictly terminal sire, but some of his daughters make great cows...the bottom side of the pedigree has a LOT to do with how heifers turn out as cows.

 

[showsteerdlux]

Just remember that without a terminal end we as producers wouldn't even be in business. For that reason I see no problem with breeding for terminal cattle.

 

[gocalves]

your mothers

 

[SKF]

Funny how we try and make TERMINAL sires into MATERNAL sires.

I have seen heat seeker, and heatwave daughters......and I would rather bet on when the sun was going to burn out as to when they were ever going to a decent cow. Maybe I have higher criteria than most, but, hard to handle, not much milk, and no mothering ability (drop and run)......I expect a lot more from my cows/heifers than that.

We have a Heatseeker cow and she is a great cow. She has a great udder and plenty of milk. The only thing I would change is she is a little over protective of her calves. Maybe its the Angus in her she out of a angus cow.  Some of our ex show heifers have been good mothers and some have been awful. Just had our About Time heifer have a calf and she is a wonderful mother. Great udder and takes good care of her calf without having to worry about her trying to kill someone.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

I have yet to see a great hw mom. However I have seen some awesome throttle cows, who cows, seeker cows, power plant cows, etc. All terminal by definition. There will be HW mommas that do the job but I think they are going to be diamonds in the rough. I personally am 0 for 16 on hw replacements.

I assume this is a loaded question since your moniker is Venable, and you probably have some HW cow that is ringing the bell. This Cody or the old man?

 

[Doc]

Funny how we try and make TERMINAL sires into MATERNAL sires.

I have seen heat seeker, and heatwave daughters......and I would rather bet on when the sun was going to burn out as to when they were ever going to a decent cow. Maybe I have higher criteria than most, but, hard to handle, not much milk, and no mothering ability (drop and run)......I expect a lot more from my cows/heifers than that.

I think you've made a pretty broad statement. I had a Heatseeker cow out of a purebred Shorthorn & she was a really good cow. I used her for a recip , but I would put 1 egg in her & then turn her with the bull because she would put a good calf on the ground if she didn't hold her egg.

 

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Thanks for your opinions.  No this is not Cody.    I was in the show steer business before cody was born.      I don't own any hs daughters burt have been thinking about including them in a project.


Hope everyone had a great thanksgiving.


Old Man Carl

 

[DLD]

LOL... Never mind

 

[kane1598]

I will stick up for our HS and HW cows.  They have done well, maybe not the Meyer or Who momma of the year, but exceptable in there ability to raise a calf.  The quality of their calves has been exceptional.  I think if they are very maternally bred on the dams side they can be useful and productive.

 

[Jill]

I can't speak for anyone else, but it has been our experience that it really doesn't matter how good they are if you can't get the calf out of them.  The problem we have run into is that they just haven't been able to have their calves, ours have been out of maternal purebred Maine on the dam side, this is our first year on them and we had 3 for 3 all dead calves, 2 c-sections doesn't make for a very profitable cow herd, we decided we would never keep another. 
In defense of Heat Wave, he isn't meant to be a maternal sire, we kept them as market heifers and they filled the bill for what they were born to do, just hard to cut them loose when they get to breeding age, but we have learned our lesson the hard way.

 

[the angus111]

Jill , there is no predictablity in club calves.its a crapshoot.example 2 heatwave calves(flushmates) 80# live calf, 130# dead calf.enter at your own risk! angus111

 

[oakbar]

You may find a good HW cow or two out there depending on their mommas genetics but, then again, I might find oil or gold on my farm or be voted the most handsome, sexiest male in North America.  In theory it could happen--in reality the chances are slim to none.  (for those of you who have actually met me, you know that in that regard the word "slim" is an exceptional stretch--in fact the gold or oil by comparison might have to be called "likely")   

I have to admit, I used to feel somewhat the same way about WMW(I still think the odds are against you there too)but he was used by so many people, so many times, over such a long period, that there have been a several good WMW cows albeit still a small percentage of the total born.  So, it may happen with HW but I think the odds are stacked heavily against you!  I guess if I was going to try it, I would recommend the same type of cow that I would for WMW---large framed, very sound, and extremely maternal.     

 

[the angus111]

Oakbar,i understand your thoughts on using large framed cows ,so they can carry the calf.but i have used holstein x recips and my theory is it gives these babies to much room to grow and i know that steins are bottomless pits when it comes to feeding.i suggest not letting these cows to carry to term,induce a week or two early and roll the dice.it this radical?it just worked for me. angus111

 

[oakbar]

Hey angus,

I guess my recommendation was if you are actually breeding a cow with HW semen for her natural calf  she should be a large framed cow because many of the HWs out of moderate sized cows tend to be small framed and look great in Oct and Nov. but don't have enough frame or size overall by the spring and summer.  Both HW and WMW should be used on cows who are extremely sound because both (IMHO) have thrown more than their share of calves with soundness issues.  As far as the maternal traits go-- I agree with other posts on here that HW has almost no ability to transmit good maternal traits so the cow should have them in excess if possible.
My personal opinion is that this is the one area that WMW has an advantage over HW.

Having said all that,  I do use some WMW in my herd for clubby type calves and we get along pretty good if we adhere to cows with the traits I've mentioned.  I probably won't use much Heatwave or his clones in the near future.  If I ever do use him,  I won't be planning to keep his daughters as replacements in my herd.  In my mind, he's a steer bull and I would probably be somewhat dissapointed if I got heifers out of him just as I would be if I got bull calves out of a great maternal bull.

JMHO but one that I think is shared by many people with far more experience and knowledge than me.

 

[the angus111]

Oakbar,I was looking at the calving aspect.I had a moderate framed  sim angus,that had a 80# heatwave calf .it just seems to me the bigger the cow is ,natural or recip,the bigger those hw calves are.the only reason i tried heatwave and clubby genetics was to land those hairy freaks.and my dead calves outnumbered my live ones. angus111

 

[oakbar]

Hey Angus,

Sorry to hear about your HW experience!!  Kind of makes my point about maternal traits, though!!  As a friend of mine once said"  What's not to like about Heatwave?  Lets see, high birth weights, no maternal traits, no performance, questionable frame size---Hey, what's not to like!!"

 

[CAB]

  HW is the only bull that I have ever used that I would pray for bulls. The heifers aren't worth the gamble. My personal experience is minimal, but I have had 3 heifers born, 3 kept for replacements. 1 had the best steer calf that we raised last year, the other 2, their calves would have literally starved to death if we had not stepped in and helped supplement the calves. All were out of maternal dams. It is a crapshoot as far as figuring out which ones may work. We have not had any troubles calving them out with all of them being able to have their calves. We have sold one, have the other 2 bred to Wilson B/C we think that this mating will be very good. The one very good HW daughter is in the top end of our cows and rising with every calf so far. IMO, HW semen should be sexed and throw the female sperm where you can't find it. We haven't used HW semen for 3 years now, but if I could have gotten good Wave 6 semen last season I would have tried to plug a few cows to him. Brent