muleman
Well-known member
Like the looks of Heatwave 6 over the other 2, but the others are proven. What are your thoughts?
Heatwave, Heatwave 1, or Heatwave 6
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shorthorns r us
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Theoretically it doesn't matter. Currently accept science says they are exactly the same.
red
Well-known member
that being said, when an Ali clone comes out, would you use it on heifers or wait to see how he does?
Red
Red
showcattlegal
Well-known member
They should be the same, but if you look at heatwave and heatwave 1. 1 is a lot sounder then heatwave.
knabe
Well-known member
SRU said:
currently accepted science is not that clones are identical. i haven't seen one reference that has demonstrated this to be so. i wish this would stop.
over time, dna can have mutations through a variety of things, including errors in duplication, and during embryogenisis, different cell lines can have a different representation than another clones. also, the difference in methylation pattern by the donor cell is different from the original mother cell that the nucleous was taken from. also, a different methylation pattern will occur as a different environment is imposed on the developing embryo, all of which can be transmitted with their own pattern through eggs and sperm
here's an article on sperm
http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/paper.php?doi=072450yj
DNA methylation reprogramming (DMR) during preimplantation development erases differentiation-associated, unessential epigenetic information accumulated during gametogenesis, and ultimately brings pluripotency to the resulting embryo. Two patterns of DMR of sperm-derived pronucleus have been reported in mammals. In the first, the male pronucleus is actively demethylated whereas in the second, the methylation state seems to be maintained. The maintenance-type DMR has been seen only through immunocytochemical observations, and waits to be proven by additional molecular-level evidence. We demonstrate that, in pig, paternally derived DNA methylation is preserved during pronucleus development, based on the following observations. First, immunostaining of pig zygotes at different time points showed the DNA methylation state to be balanced between parental pronuclei throughout pronucleus development. Second, bisulfite analysis of PRE-1 repetitive sequences found mono- and polyspermic eggs to have similar methylation states. Third, the methylation state of a human erythropoietin gene delivered by transgenic pig spermatozoa was maintained in the male pronucleus. Finally, 5-aza-2'-deoxycytidine treatment, which blocks re-methylation, did not show the male pronucleus to be stalled in a demethylated state. In pig zygotes, paternally derived cytosine methylation was preserved throughout pronucleus development. These findings from multilateral DMR analyses provide further support to the view that DMR occurs in a non-conserved manner during early mammalian development.
I am not being a smart ass here...
So are you saying that if you compared the DNA of HW w/the DNA of HW1 or 2, 3, etc.. that they won't be exactly the same? Can you tell the difference between a calf sired by the original vs. the clones? I was under impression that it was impossible to be able to tell if a calf was out of the clone or the original. That's why I never worried when I sent any to slaughter. There was no way anyone would be able to tell the difference.
Please enlighten me....
So are you saying that if you compared the DNA of HW w/the DNA of HW1 or 2, 3, etc.. that they won't be exactly the same? Can you tell the difference between a calf sired by the original vs. the clones? I was under impression that it was impossible to be able to tell if a calf was out of the clone or the original. That's why I never worried when I sent any to slaughter. There was no way anyone would be able to tell the difference.
Please enlighten me....
knabe
Well-known member
light bulb.
if you sequence all the dna from each clone, they will not be the same. by definition, if only on base pair other than in the centromeres and telomeres, is different, it's different. this doesn't take into account the methylation i have been discussing for a few posts. gene regulation is simply another means to store diversity and is not well understood. for instance, one could use two different donor cells from two different mommas that were raised in two completely different environments and you would expect to see differences in offspring that would be probably somewhere in between the two mother's and their clones. environmental effects are vastly underestimated in animal husbandry, and just breeding in general. we keep searching for genetic differences, all the time fully unaware that by simply being in a different environment changes gene expression.
you could tell the diffence between calves from different clones if you knew the base pairs where they differed, but this is not technically possible at this point other than by serendipity. it's simply too expensive to do this, though techically feasible.
one could also theorhetically tell the diffence in the clones by their methylation patterns, though one would obviously need to take into account the mother's pattern as well.
this is why i think it is much more interesting to linebreed than worry about the clones, especially a terminal type sire. we have virtually eliminated line breeding as a practice, yet it holds so much value. with line breeding, it is easier to fix multiple traits, even if the genes are dominant, which to me is the most important reason to line breed. the recessive genes are not really necessary to fix through line breeding as it's really just simple to do this through traditional methods as they are usually single gene traits. with dominant genes in the homozygous state for phenotypic traits that are multigenic, especially if you need only one copy each of these genes. with recessive genes, you need both copies. this may account for some individuals to be prepotent. i think its high time people stared line breeding more. it also has the added benefit of weeding out bad genes quickly, instead of creating a bunch of ladies in waiting. we don't seem to have learned very much with this as breeders are always hiding this issue unless thank goodness, there is a test, ie PHA, TH.
dusty, did you rent clones or just use semen?
i think it's pretty funny that one clone (not heatwave) has both PHA and TH. this is the perfect bull for sexed semen, not unsexed where you can get females. this is a complete and total waste of time. although it does create more opportunity for creative breeders to come up with alternatives to heatwave. they will, i guarantee it. i can already see it in some pedigrees that some people, even those that had PHAC,THC animals are being creative. it's great to see, it's just sad that the industry as a whole isn't really interested other than to have someone else do it. but, that's what america is all about!!!!!!
if you sequence all the dna from each clone, they will not be the same. by definition, if only on base pair other than in the centromeres and telomeres, is different, it's different. this doesn't take into account the methylation i have been discussing for a few posts. gene regulation is simply another means to store diversity and is not well understood. for instance, one could use two different donor cells from two different mommas that were raised in two completely different environments and you would expect to see differences in offspring that would be probably somewhere in between the two mother's and their clones. environmental effects are vastly underestimated in animal husbandry, and just breeding in general. we keep searching for genetic differences, all the time fully unaware that by simply being in a different environment changes gene expression.
you could tell the diffence between calves from different clones if you knew the base pairs where they differed, but this is not technically possible at this point other than by serendipity. it's simply too expensive to do this, though techically feasible.
one could also theorhetically tell the diffence in the clones by their methylation patterns, though one would obviously need to take into account the mother's pattern as well.
this is why i think it is much more interesting to linebreed than worry about the clones, especially a terminal type sire. we have virtually eliminated line breeding as a practice, yet it holds so much value. with line breeding, it is easier to fix multiple traits, even if the genes are dominant, which to me is the most important reason to line breed. the recessive genes are not really necessary to fix through line breeding as it's really just simple to do this through traditional methods as they are usually single gene traits. with dominant genes in the homozygous state for phenotypic traits that are multigenic, especially if you need only one copy each of these genes. with recessive genes, you need both copies. this may account for some individuals to be prepotent. i think its high time people stared line breeding more. it also has the added benefit of weeding out bad genes quickly, instead of creating a bunch of ladies in waiting. we don't seem to have learned very much with this as breeders are always hiding this issue unless thank goodness, there is a test, ie PHA, TH.
dusty, did you rent clones or just use semen?
i think it's pretty funny that one clone (not heatwave) has both PHA and TH. this is the perfect bull for sexed semen, not unsexed where you can get females. this is a complete and total waste of time. although it does create more opportunity for creative breeders to come up with alternatives to heatwave. they will, i guarantee it. i can already see it in some pedigrees that some people, even those that had PHAC,THC animals are being creative. it's great to see, it's just sad that the industry as a whole isn't really interested other than to have someone else do it. but, that's what america is all about!!!!!!
I've used HW1 semen ever since it came out a couple years ago.
I realize that environment has a huge role on phenotype and how genes are expressed. The same people constantly doing well at shows is a good example of that.
I was just wondering if the clones are different enough to throw calves that could be differentiated between the clone and the original.
I realize that environment has a huge role on phenotype and how genes are expressed. The same people constantly doing well at shows is a good example of that.
I was just wondering if the clones are different enough to throw calves that could be differentiated between the clone and the original.
Chap
Well-known member
interesting topic... if I understand and as I have been told by others, whom I would classify as experts. the plain english explanation of differnces in clones can be associated with: 1) the uterine impact of the recipient cow on the calf itself. 2) Maybe more noticible is the impact that feed, fit and preparation has on the physical appearance of the yearling clone. I think the biggest differnce in the clone's pictures is the condition, clip and photography. When each calf was released for promotion they where fed and fit to meet the look that was desired for that time. HW (orgininal ) came out when WMW and Full Flush and Heat Seeker were dominant and therefore looks the most like those bulls in his picture. HWI came out later as the trend was moving toward a more moderate, bigger bodied style, and that trend has continued as HW6 is introduced. This may be the very reason that HW has remained so popular for so long.... The cattle can be managed, and management WINS!
IMO
IMO
knabe
Well-known member
Dusty said:
after getting past the fit and finish of clipping and photography, what are the differences.
dusty,
this is probably not knowable without comparing say 30 individuals from the same cow all raised by the same person.
what's been your experience? how do they differ? how are they the same.
muscle, amount of bone, hock set, squareness of anything, ie pelvis, leg placement, toes pointing, head shape, shoulder break, both inthe chine and behind scapula, chest floor, depth of twist, lower rear quarter, shoulder muscle etc.................
it still amazes me that a market heifer can't win a market show. perhaps they do?
what are some management mistakes with these steers, other than not dry aging them on the hoof (cold rooms) for weeks.
in plants, simple pressure on individual cells is all that is necessary for different flowering patterns during development of the growing point and how cells are arranged and how many there are. this can actually be figured out using fractals. it would be amazing to me if there was no difference in the tissue that becomes a CL, even within the same cow and over the number of births that didn't have an effect.
i think it would be fun at one of these larger shows to do a blind test to have people line up which steers were out of which bull. of course there could be some mistakes with actual id and/or deception, but still, i'd like to see some people try this, especiallly since that one steer on this site, people were amazed that the steer was a heat wave. i was amazed too.
Jill
Well-known member
There aren't many bulls you can do that with, Heatwave is one you can generally pick out of a crowd, my husband is that way with Who Made Who also something about their head and neck.
knabe said:
I mean differentiated with some type of genetic test.. Not by phenotype.
It has been my experience that the clone doesn't throw any different calves than the original. There seems to be the same degree of variance among the calves of both sires. Not enough to say that one is better than the other. I've seen just calves out of both and I've seen studs out of both.
I think the reason why some calves do better at different homes is all in the feed and care they receive. It's the little things that separate the good ones from the great ones. Some people take it to a whole another level when it comes to taking care of club calves and allowing them to express their full genetic potential. There is a plethora of different things that can be done, supplements fed etc to tweak a calf as it growing to "help" it look better at the end. I probably don't even know a lot of the things done to calves now. I'm amazed every time I go to a somebodies place and see what they do.
I think it would be fun also to do a blind test....Some sires are easier than others to see. HW, WMW, and the flush lines are usually pretty easy to spot. The head itself is usually a pretty good sign. A lot of calves have their heads shaped though now so it's getting a little tougher.
knabe
Well-known member
dusty,
here's what one would do to develope a test. there is a bovine genome assembly, not great, but a start. then one would have to make some libraries of each of the clones, probably 50-100k, then do say 100,000 to 500,000 end reads on those clones at say $ a read so, for heat wave, heat wave 1, heat wave 6 and i'd do the steer clone too, i'd say about $300,000 to 1.5 million just to see if there are any differences. of course, since this is random shotgun sequencing, you won't get 100% overlapping of sequencing reads, maybe something like 50%, so perhaps up the number of reads to say a million each and the number starts to grow. one probably couldn't get this done with convential sequencine and get funded for it, so they would probably use a gene chip to do this, though again, not every base pair would be sampled. it would cost 50-100K to do this maybe, you could look for any differences, pcr from the clone's dna and see if the differences were reproducible and if they were heterozygous changes, homozygous etc. as a taxpayer, would you fund that? or as a cattle producer, would you fund that? as a person who was interested in basic science, would you fund that? personally, i would fire all 325 staff at the bay area air research board, and fund it. i would fire 90% of the staff at the state level and fund something else too. and fire 90% at the federal level too, and put that money into education.
theres's a couple of other ways to attempt this, such as AFLP's, which is kind of an interesting technology as it focuses on single base changes that are digestible by restriction enzymes, kinda similar to the way the PHA test is done from an amplified portion of just the PHA gene.
here's a link to a paternity suit in humans
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/252884/identical_twin_brothers_in_paternity.html
here's another
http://www.eyeondna.com/2008/02/20/genetic-differences-between-identical-twins/
the second one has a discussion about methylation
here's what one would do to develope a test. there is a bovine genome assembly, not great, but a start. then one would have to make some libraries of each of the clones, probably 50-100k, then do say 100,000 to 500,000 end reads on those clones at say $ a read so, for heat wave, heat wave 1, heat wave 6 and i'd do the steer clone too, i'd say about $300,000 to 1.5 million just to see if there are any differences. of course, since this is random shotgun sequencing, you won't get 100% overlapping of sequencing reads, maybe something like 50%, so perhaps up the number of reads to say a million each and the number starts to grow. one probably couldn't get this done with convential sequencine and get funded for it, so they would probably use a gene chip to do this, though again, not every base pair would be sampled. it would cost 50-100K to do this maybe, you could look for any differences, pcr from the clone's dna and see if the differences were reproducible and if they were heterozygous changes, homozygous etc. as a taxpayer, would you fund that? or as a cattle producer, would you fund that? as a person who was interested in basic science, would you fund that? personally, i would fire all 325 staff at the bay area air research board, and fund it. i would fire 90% of the staff at the state level and fund something else too. and fire 90% at the federal level too, and put that money into education.
theres's a couple of other ways to attempt this, such as AFLP's, which is kind of an interesting technology as it focuses on single base changes that are digestible by restriction enzymes, kinda similar to the way the PHA test is done from an amplified portion of just the PHA gene.
here's a link to a paternity suit in humans
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/252884/identical_twin_brothers_in_paternity.html
here's another
http://www.eyeondna.com/2008/02/20/genetic-differences-between-identical-twins/
the second one has a discussion about methylation
shorthornboy
Active member
consider this the clip jobs on all these bulls are different and from what i heard is that heatwave1 is throwing more consistent calves than heatwave
agreed. the knowledge of his performance breeding wise is very important as to why his calves are so successful. Heatwave is a 2000 model, that means first calves would have com in like 02 or 03 right? that is around 5 years of history to see what works. he also had great success at first so he was used extensively in more recent years. with the number of calves he has had, there should better be some good info as to what cows he works good on. plus he seems to transmit many of his ideal traits into his calves which is key. i think this alone seperates him from other bulls. plus the changing of feeding, clipping, and overall management has changed alot since when HW was originally promoted.
Jill
Well-known member
cbcfarms said:
This alone is why we still use him even though he is a TH carrier, take a look at how many other 2000-2006 model bulls are still sought after, clubby or purebred. His calves are consistant and predictable, unfortunantly he hasn't been able IMO to produce a bull that will replace him, and a THF bull hasn't come along that will take his place.
knabe
Well-known member
i forgot to mention that a synonomous change in a dna sequence is usually thought to not have an effect, since the amino acid is not changed. amino acids have three letters, making up a codon, for instance, CGA, CGG, CGC, AGA, and AGG code for arginine. for this example, if the third letter in the first three codons is changed, it's still arginine. it was thought this didn't matter, but......
http://jmg.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/40/10/e115
this has been noted in genes that have differences in penetrance. the reason i bring this up is because of monkey mouth. there may be a synonomous change, which could account for the variation
"Here, we report on a synonymous codon change in the LMNA gene, which leads to abnormal splicing and is likely to cause LGMD1B in a large German pedigree. Such "neutral" synonymous codon changes leading to splicing disorganisation have been described for the hexoseaminidase A,9 calpain 3,10FGFR211 and fibrillin-1 genes.12"
basically what this means, is that a change in a base pair of dna that doesn't change the amino acid, and therefore the protein, can affect something. therefore, it's not necessary to terminate the protein with a premature stop such as in PHA to have a problem.
this means that if you only have one base pair change between clones, and it's in an "important" area, you will get differences, especially if it's in an area for instance that has something to do with development, energy utilization, who knows.
life is pretty complicated
http://jmg.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/40/10/e115
this has been noted in genes that have differences in penetrance. the reason i bring this up is because of monkey mouth. there may be a synonomous change, which could account for the variation
"Here, we report on a synonymous codon change in the LMNA gene, which leads to abnormal splicing and is likely to cause LGMD1B in a large German pedigree. Such "neutral" synonymous codon changes leading to splicing disorganisation have been described for the hexoseaminidase A,9 calpain 3,10FGFR211 and fibrillin-1 genes.12"
basically what this means, is that a change in a base pair of dna that doesn't change the amino acid, and therefore the protein, can affect something. therefore, it's not necessary to terminate the protein with a premature stop such as in PHA to have a problem.
this means that if you only have one base pair change between clones, and it's in an "important" area, you will get differences, especially if it's in an area for instance that has something to do with development, energy utilization, who knows.
life is pretty complicated
