help fast!!!!

[Ted N]

Well, I've been a looker for a while & finally decided to take the plunge & post.

As a full time practicing large animal vet, I have NO problem w/ what CPL said. I'm sure Lana, you are fine at what you do here, but remember not everyone that posts knows what they are talking about.  I'd much rather someone contact me if they have an emergency situation than ask someone on an internet board. Small problems are fine, but if you have the case like this, you need immediate attention. I'm sure this won't go over well with you or your buddies, like Show Heifer/Jen, but I wanted to defend CPL.
Bash/Slam me all you want. I've got a thick hide! LOL

Ted

 

[DL]

So Ted would you drop everything to go see this client you had never seen before because the calf won't nurse? Would you stop in the middle of your big dairy herd health to help a person you have no VCP relationship with? Are you willing to see people with only 2 cows? Will you do their ER work? There are many people who do not have and cannot get a LA vet - what would you have them do? Maybe this person could call you? Most of the time clients with vets who are responsive don't post their questions here - they call their vet.

Actually I had not problem with CPL saying call the vet - I did have a problem with the snide  "What will you do if your computer crashes? Let the calf die? Major example of someone who needs to strike up a relationship with their local vet." Here is a person who is asking for help - advise is a good thing, snide isn't.

oh, PS  (welcome)

 

[Moocow11]

Ted N  (welcome) we needed a vet around.

 

[farmboy]

pretty sure we already had a vet around 

 

[DL]

Thanks FB! Hopefully Ted will be willing/able to get involved in the discussions and bring some good info to the table. Did I miss you on the AABP membership list or is Ted N your pseudoname?

A lot of this stuff we have discussed before so we may or may not be up for rehashing it - but in MVHO asking for advise about a problem on the board is really no different than asking for advise about what bull to use - in most cases you are asking complete strangers for their opinion - the only difference may be urgency.

True story
I found a baby Redtail hawk - he was being attacked by crows.  I decided by visual inspection that he wasn't injured but likely young, fell or whatever out of the next, and probably didn't have hawk skills to survive. I put him in a calf hutch, fed him chicken and water (I don't keep whole mice in my freezer) so he would be safe and nourished while I figured out where he could be rehabed.

I called a full time wildlife vet - actually someone I know - he proceeded to tell me that it is illegal to have a hawk(yes, I am aware of that fact), that feeding him chicken for 5 days would kill him a sit would screw up the calcium/phosphorous ratio (I certainly didn't intend to keep him and feed him chicken for 5 days) and that I should take him back to where the nest was and walk away - that the parents would maybe take care of him.

Well, I didn't find that advise either useful or helpful. The parents were not calling for him, he had been tired and dehydrated and probably would have died. Yeah, I understand the cycle of nature but...

I found a woman who does wildlife rehab - she is a woman with a tremendous amount of practical knowledge and common sense - I called her and she agreed that the hawk likely needed to be be taught to be a hawk - so off he went. Turns out he was a she, she was rehabed with several adults who taught her how to rip apart food and how to catch food and to fly - I released her 2 weeks ago and see her a couple of times a week soaring out of the woods

The moral of the story -
lots of people with no degrees or special pieces of paper have tons of knowledge they are willing to share
not everybody agrees on how to do things
if baby hawks had testicles the size of baby bulls it would be a whole lot easier to sex them!

 

[Joe Boy]

I have tubed lots of different babies, calves, lambs, and pigs and my neighbor took my puppies and used eye dropper.  I lost one lamb by making a mistake out of a few thousand over 25 years.  I have not lost a calf but I am very careful and even listen to the tube as I put it in.  I also lubricate it with first cow milk prior to putting it down the throat.  I believe most people can do it, if patience is maintained and properly taught.

I have found that a calf that is not hungry will get that way if you can put some first cow milk in his mouth and let him get a taste.  Seems to me the sugar (lactose) stimulates hunger. 

I think this site is a GREAT place to find help and sometimes can be reached far faster than a local expert.  There are several ways to tell the truth but the best way is calmly in love without trying to inflict extra pain for the moment.

 

[Show Heifer]

Welcome Ted N.....I'm not going to bash you, as I do not know you. I had a problem with CPL's ATTITUDE, not his advice...and by the way, where are you located (just a state)? I live in a totally rural area, and have 4 vet clinics (closest being 35 miles)  with a total of 14 vets practicing, AND CAN NOT GET ANYONE TO COME ASSIST A CALF PULL, let alone getting a calf to nurse.
Are you strictly a large animal vet? See ALL farm animals? If you could, please post your number (or email me) and I will be more than happy to call you with ALL my questions. And yes, my money is good.
Please feel free to jump in on some of these questions: Why did it take my vet 3 days to post a calf that I DELIVERED to their clinic? Why did it take another 7 weeks to get the report? Why did the vet NOT RETURN MY CALLS, EVEN AFTER I LEFT MESSAGES  on BOTH phones? Why did another clinic tell me they were too busy to deal with my problems and to call back? Why did my vet laugh when I ask about a feed ration additives?  My point being, not everyone has access to a friendly, knowledgable, large animal vet that is willing to answer questions for us small producers. In fact I know of a 700 cow herd that is having trouble locating a vet (and yes, their money is REALLY GOOD)
So I look for my answers elsewhere when I can.  And I honestly feel the folks on this board are at least as knowledgable if not more so, than the people I have access to in my area. They have no idea how much I appreciate their input, as I will yours. I take some advice, leave some advice, but always sign off my computer feeling like I learned something, and that is usually more than what I feel when I hang up my phone.
Again, welcome to our community and I look forward to your future post!!!

 

[JbarL]

thank you for all the help. the calf is doing better, we finally got him to eat some last nite with help from my boss who breeds horses w/o having to tube him. he will mostly likely end up being a bottle calf because he doesnt want anything to do with the cow. we had to hold his head and massage his throat to get him to eat last nite. this morning the same thing but he did suck a little on his own. and then tonite he sucked on his own, but you have to hold his head up or he just lets it drop and stands there. this morning the guy that i usually get advice from stopped by and looked at him and gave him 10cc of iron and the same of b12 to help him along. there really is no large animal vets around here, the one i use for health papers and such is older and doesnt make emergency calls anymore and u have to book 2 weeks ahead for a farm call anyways. the other one is a equine vet for the barn that i work at, and its kinda hard to get them to come out for my 4 head counting the heifers me and my brother just showed this year. thank u again for the help and i will report back how he does

 

[JbarL]

thank you for all the help. the calf is doing better, we finally got him to eat some last nite with help from my boss who breeds horses w/o having to tube him. he will mostly likely end up being a bottle calf because he doesnt want anything to do with the cow. we had to hold his head and massage his throat to get him to eat last nite. this morning the same thing but he did suck a little on his own. and then tonite he sucked on his own, but you have to hold his head up or he just lets it drop and stands there. this morning the guy that i usually get advice from stopped by and looked at him and gave him 10cc of iron and the same of b12 to help him along. there really is no large animal vets around here, the one i use for health papers and such is older and doesnt make emergency calls anymore and u have to book 2 weeks ahead for a farm call anyways. the other one is a equine vet for the barn that i work at, and its kinda hard to get them to come out for my 4 head counting the heifers me and my brother just showed this year. thank u again for the help and i will report back how he does

ok so it timed out on me.....it got a bit wordy anyway....but here goes...crc im glad to here things are going better...i have the same vet problem here...not surre where your located at but the sparse vet coveage seems to have no geographic epicenter...its a problem alot of places...i have one@20 miles and 1 @30 miles.......i have good herd hand and great neighbors
( man and wife..)....have seen and do it all.....one thing they know for sure  is  when we need the vet....buy then...time and distance..( no cyper hands on in the real world..)..become our enemy....gather allthe info...here..books/ cave writings/nostrdamus bovine quantrains....you get the point....what youve learned from this now makes you the one someone else will call and need you for some help or advice....
...the time/distance/ for hands on is just not avaliable to all.......my wages for gary and kay for and a"difficult" situation would cost me ..oh say  ..a carton of beechnut...for gary and ...some quiet time away from the grandkids and take em fishing some afternoon so kay can have quiet afternoon.......such good knowledge and info here....and the way the highley educated vets are so chummy and non argumantive  (welcome)  ;D ;D....now its the vets turn......lets say we "created" our own demographic epicenter based on say abunch of folks in need of  your services and it had say a 50 mile radius.......at the center of this radius is a facility ( crude but effictive)....if  3 or 4 vets working this "area" would make them selves avaliable.....for rotating weekends or what ever......then through a controlled program.....correct ai dates...cleanup dates....shot records ect.....you get the picture.....and use the web here for communication......cell phones....pda's....to be ready andbe close by if your "on call"  by the all vets getting together and recoginizing there radius first of all based on iterest.....which seems to be great....you can get back to small herd management and emergency work both....in a managable fashion.....it would also require "membership costs"...this would be based say on a 3 month inerveral. vist for shots , record helping. ....and solid info you can pass on and insure to the other vets   kinda a basic controlled seting so each vet knows all things required have been done and your not walking into typhoid marys......say you get 3 ranchers and the other 2 vets  get 3  each.....thats 9 customes for 3 vets....you get the scheduled 3 month work in your area and of course the vet on calls get the  fee.....if notheing happens and you get no fee.or emergencys ...you get caughtup on your paperwork...your novel or watch court tv........the central location would be for 2days of cours but after time i think your flexability and your chummmy rrelationships with each other ought to be able to take there weekends when there locals are the ones who are goin to be needed it...what do ya think?......any way  if  anyone is interested in a sample of an area scenrio or have your won....let me know...hope this make sense to some one..thanks jbarl.

 

[renegade]

We have had this conversation before but there are fewer and fewer cow vets around - if you want one to come out on an emergency they you need to give them the gravy work too - if I have never seen you before or never been to your place I am unlikely to drop everything and rush out in the middle of the night..

On another note there are lots of talented and intelligent cattlemen who can tube a calf - and there is lots of useful veterinary information on the net - CPL sometimes people need a little guidance - and the board can be helpful for that  - ask chambero (and others) how online advise saved some of his calves - I wouldn't be quite so critical of what you clearly don't know about the planet dwellers ;D

Dont take this offensivley but shouldn't the animals health come before the vet thinks well they have never been in my office so too bad. Also i don't have the kind of money it takes to get all of my animals vaccinated by a vet every year when i can do it just as well by myself and i can get the vaccinations from our vet supply with a face to face vet consultant at half the price. I do take my animals to a vet to get the health checked and emergencys but he probably wouldn't come out to our house during an emergency. We had a mare that my uncle left at a breeders-the stud beat her up inside and out and the guy left her their practicly to rot until my uncle, my mom and i came to pick her up- no one was home and the mare  was laying in the ally way with no food or water. We took her to the closest vet (who isn't that great) and he charged us $300 to tell us she was going to die and he hadn't even looked at her except he had come out a little earlier that day. We took her to another vet that was about 60 or 70 miles away ( kinda short on good large animal vets) he said she should be ok but we wouldn't be able to breed with her. When we got her home she was still standing in the trailer and by the time her pen was done she had passed away. The vet said it was due to all of the trama of having to move her.

 

[DL]

Dont take this offensivley but shouldn't the animals health come before the vet thinks well they have never been in my office so too bad. Also i don't have the kind of money it takes to get all of my animals vaccinated by a vet every year when i can do it just as well by myself and i can get the vaccinations from our vet supply with a face to face vet consultant at half the price. I do take my animals to a vet to get the health checked and emergencys but he probably wouldn't come out to our house during an emergency. We had a mare that my uncle left at a breeders-the stud beat her up inside and out and the guy left her their practicly to rot until my uncle, my mom and i came to pick her up- no one was home and the mare  was laying in the ally way with no food or water. We took her to the closest vet (who isn't that great) and he charged us $300 to tell us she was going to die and he hadn't even looked at her except he had come out a little earlier that day. We took her to another vet that was about 60 or 70 miles away ( kinda short on good large animal vets) he said she should be ok but we wouldn't be able to breed with her. When we got her home she was still standing in the trailer and by the time her pen was done she had passed away. The vet said it was due to all of the trama of having to move her.

Your responsibility as a stockperson is to provide the best care you can for your animals. My responsibility as a veterinarian is to provide the best care I can for my clients animals. If you are not my client then I have no responsibility to you or your animals. Your responsibility is to develop a relationship with your veterinarian such that he/she will be available for emergencies - if you don't do that it is unlikely that you will be able to obtain veterinary care. Insuring that veterinary care is available for "the animals health" is your responsibility - you need to talk to your vet to determine what he/she needs from you to provide emergency care -

I am not offended but I can tell you that I and many other vets are unwilling to stop in the middle of doing something for regular clients to run off to see someones animal that I have never seen before in a place I have never been before to facilities that may be less than adequate to see some crisis.  If I am not involved in the herd health program, if I don't see your cattle on a routine basis, then I am not willing to be involved in the emergency aspect of care. I am not alone in this.

If you give your own vaccinations and get your vaccines from your vet supply who provides you face to face consultation at half the price then maybe you can get him to take care of your emergencies at half the price.

I have said this before - I pay a friend of mine (a vet) every year to vaccinate my horse - why because if I expect him to get up in the middle of the night to help me if there is an issue I think he deserves the gravy work.  The choice and the consequences are yours.

 

[chambero]

Don't give up on trying to get the calf to suck.  Put momma in a chute and keep trying every day - better if its at least a couple of times a day.  Milk momma out and bottle feed the calf with it for a little while.  We've sometimes done this for a week or so before getting one going.  They'll eventually figure it out and attach to momma.  This approach will work on orphans or twins you need to get on another cow that has lost a baby.  Stay with it, they'll take to each other soon enough.

 

[knabe]

this thread has morphed into an extemely important discussion.  by the way, chambero, silver tongued and succint and correct as usual. 

to me, what is going on here is something called expectation gap.  you left your horse with someone who, in an emergency, should have had the wherewithall to deal with the situation there.  internal injuries are extremely serious.

when others are taking care of your animals, heaven forbid, your children too, what if scenario's need to be played out.  listen to your gut, if the person you are entrusting your animal too can't deal with your insecurities with a strategy to deal with emergencies, contact info if things go wrong, liability, etc, then don't do it.  this is how things get out of hand and start to snowball.  there is a reason it is cheap. 

"don't take this offensively", but i feel the situation has morphed into blaming parties that were not involved in the decisions that led to the problem with the mare.  this is difficult to even be able to say, let alone listen to.  i live in constant low level fear that i may get into a situation i can not handle with livestock, and this motivates me to purchase the appropriate equipment, facilities, and development relationships which minimze risk.  i would change that word "probably" into "definately" with a personal relationship with some vet to minimize expectations so situations like described can be headed off a lot earlier.  as a vet, i would assume they retain the right to refuse services, based on their expectations of potential clients.  both parties can be expected to describe their needs, apprehensions and individual circumstances to see if an agreement can be reached.  i totally respect a vet, farrier, anyone's perogiative to deny me services based on their needs.  as a livestock and pet owner, ultimately it is my responsibility for their welfare, and potential damage they may cause, which is why i have an umbrella policy which is extremely cheap.

 

[DL]

and this months silver tongue award goes to the west coast contingent - congratulations knabe - you nosed out chambero! ;D ;D

 

[Show Heifer]

Heres my take (for what little it is worth). I can't afford to call my vet for every little thing. And don't believe they deserve the HUGE mark up they put on vaccines. BUT....I am willing to pay (and I do pay) for emergency care and for sick animal calls. I don't "price shop", I don't bicker, heck, I don't even ask the price of animal care. If my vet see's it fit to charge me MORE because I don't get my vaccines there, I am fine with that.  But, I DO expect them to come out when I call them (unless they are elsewhere on an emergency!!).  I have safe facilities. And I now have a great (new) vet that understands that training the cattle producer to do the more routine things (vaccinating, even castrating (I don't do that), and self diagnosising) is WELL within HIS interest and in the best interest of the animals in his area!
What a great vet indeed!!

But DL, I fully understand where you are coming from too! I guess its all the way you look at it!! (clapping)

 

[SKF]

The problem in our area large animal vets only treat horses. You call about a problem with a calf and they tell you they don't treat cattle. We do have a good vet but he is an hour away and does not have any partners so if he's on vacation or on another emergency we are on our own. I wish we had more vets in our area!!!

 

[DL]

This is always a lively discussion - SKF you are not alone - believe me - and I think it will only get worse - consider you go to vet school and end up with loans up to $100,000 - sometimes more - you have to make a living - small animal is lucrative and you stay inside and don't really get dirty. Large animal can be lucrative but you are outside and dirty. If there is not a sufficient amount of work to make a living chances are there won't be a LA vet - and if the only work is emergency then there is insufficient work to make a living.

If you have a vet an hour away that is willing to care for your cattle keep him busy and happy!  ;D

 

[CAB]

    DL, I've tried to resist replying to this post for the last few days, but this one just gets a burr rubbing under my tail. Have you ever thought about how much the farmer/rancher has invested in his profession? Makes the $100,000 plus look small, & we don't very often get to put a price on our products. It's all about economics here, if I can do it myself, it gets done that way. If I need a vet you can bet it's not going to be a walk in the park, I'm going to need a pro. I know that their costs are sky rocketing also, but it's gotten to a point here that if you need to call the vets, you may as well put the animal down, because there is no way that you are going to even break even on the deal. I'm not going to have the vets be a charity case for me.
  It's gotten to be like vet conglomerates around here with vet clinics buying out competerors to controll prices, many times getting heavily into livestock production, resulting in running smaller indepentdent operators out of business.
  Sorry to have to get up pupit, but this a sore subject with me. Brent C.

 

[knabe]

isn't it great that if we just make laws that allow markets to work, that a price point will be reached that both sides can benefit from without subsidies from other industries?

 

[DL]

    DL, I've tried to resist replying to this post for the last few days, but this one just gets a burr rubbing under my tail. Have you ever thought about how much the farmer/rancher has invested in his profession? Makes the $100,000 plus look small, & we don't very often get to put a price on our products. It's all about economics here, if I can do it myself, it gets done that way. If I need a vet you can bet it's not going to be a walk in the park, I'm going to need a pro. I know that their costs are sky rocketing also, but it's gotten to a point here that if you need to call the vets, you may as well put the animal down, because there is no way that you are going to even break even on the deal. I'm not going to have the vets be a charity case for me.
  It's gotten to be like vet conglomerates around here with vet clinics buying out competerors to controll prices, many times getting heavily into livestock production, resulting in running smaller indepentdent operators out of business.
  Sorry to have to get up pupit, but this a sore subject with me. Brent C.

CAB - don't know where you are but I do understand the economics - all I am really saying is that if you don't provide sufficient work for food animal vets, but expect them to do your emergencies, they cannot afford to stay in practice in your area and will either do dmall animal or go elsewhere - and I don't see it getting any better soon