Help please

[GoWyo]

What tranquilizers are approved for use in cattle and what are the withdrawal times?  I can certainly sympathize with someone trying to have a young kid show a steer, investing much more money than auction barn price in the animal, not to mention the time and effort and not be able to show it, especially if the tagging for a terminal show has already occurred and there is no way to get a replacement steer.  Does not make use of ace or other juices excusable, but sometimes they do respond to being slowed down a little.  I like the nose clip for the knotheads and it seems to help get their respect if they are too pushy, but it is difficult for a little kid to use.

If this is a really good steer, maybe he could be traded to an older showman to show and find a more docile one for the small showman.

 

[knabe]

most of the time when we "break" animals we are really trying to see how much irritation they can tolerate rather than understanding them.

again, this is underestimated.  you'd be surprised how much you can do with these animals.

 

[BCCC]

Also, I was merely asking for advice. Not your approval. If this is so illegal, why was I able to go to a vet supply store and buy it over the counter? Also, how many drugs are only to be administered by a vet? What are they? What do they do?  I certainly didn't mean for this thread to get steered in this direction, but since you're the expert on the laws of this, please tell me.

If you just dont respond back she will drop it. Really 99.9999% of "ace" topics lead to this and where this is going. Ace topics(even if they didnt start as ace topics) normally end up being at least 4 pages long.  ))

 

[knabe]

isn't ok to get a diversity of opinion, or just one that reinforces one's opinion?

cattle are not pets, some just require more skill than kids have and require adult attention without yanking and pulling.

kinda like dating.  some people just don't respond to shortcuts, just like cattle.

 

[DL]

]If you just dont respond back she will drop it. Really 99.9999% of "ace" topics lead to this and where this is going. Ace topics(even if they didnt start as ace topics) normally end up being at least 4 pages long.  ))

SO now you are a mind reader and a psychic - COOL

I agree with you knabe on this one - if the approach is to break not gentle the frustration level is often very high and it goes down the halter to the calf

Good point  GoWyo - re trading

In reality there are no tranquilizers approved for use in cattle for the purpose of calming them down - long time ago there was a discussion about schnapps and other such beverages - sort of like marinade on the hoof - there would be nothing illegal about that (as long as they didn't drive

 

[pjkjr4]

Please either answer the question, or drop it DL. How do YOU deal with problematic dispositions in show cattle that your children show or have shown? Did your kids just deal with it themselves? Did you deal with it by culling the calf and picking out another? I really want to know.

I think you need to go on an anti-ace crusade around the country. Surely Obama will fund this for you. You can have rallies, and town meetings, and ice cream socials, so you can spread the word about how everyone that uses that product for whatever reason is a crook and basically not able to breathe the same air as you. Don't forget to obtain permits to do these in each particular town. If you don't, you are breaking the law.

Also, make sure you obey all traffic laws on this journey so that so many innocent people don't fall victim to your carelessness.

 

[Jill]

DL and Showheifer, ever have this kind of a problem with one of your children's animals?? Let me know how you dealt with it; I'd really like to know.

Also, I was merely asking for advice. Not your approval. If this is so illegal, why was I able to go to a vet supply store and buy it over the counter? Also, how many drugs are only to be administered by a vet? What are they? What do they do?  I certainly didn't mean for this thread to get steered in this direction, but since you're the expert on the laws of this, please tell me.

To answer your question, they neither one have children so can't really relate to your situation.

 

[DL]

I don't have kids but I work with a lot of kids and when they are young and first starting the primary consideration of the parents is a calm calf that will lead to a good experience. Once they get older and have more confidence and experience then the priorities may change.  A lot of my calves go to kids who have had a bad experience and need a calm calf - I won't sell a calf with an attitude to a kid.

One of the big issues in veterinary medicine,  the FDA and agriculture in general is prudent use of drugs in food animals - PETA and HSUS are working very hard to limit our ability to use antibiotics, anti inflammatory drugs and other drugs in a therapeutic manner - I would suggest that this is an issue we need to take seriously - know the rules and laws, read the label on the drugs you use and make informed decisions with your veterinarian - what you (generic  you) do may become fodder for HSUS - this is an industry issue - being flip only underscores the issue

 

[pjkjr4]

First of all, this calf was just like any other weaned calf from a herd that has had daily human interaction. He was somewhat calm, and had even been tied up a couple of times. My son, who was 7 at the time, was leading him in a pen by day3......yes, day 3. As he got bigger, he got more skiddish, up to the point where we are today. So that's why I did what I did. I still sleep good at night. The ace is temporary one way or the other. We will either get him, or he will get us. I don't have a herd of calves to sort through, nor do I have the money to sell this one at the sale barn and go buy another one. Even if I did, I doubt there are very many fall born steers within reasonable driving distance at this time. If you would like to PM me for my full name and address, I would be more than happy to give this to you, so you can turn me in to the authorities.

Lastly....you don't have kids. You have NO CLUE as to what a parent will do out of love for their kids, even if it means bending the rules every now and then. Some will even go to obscene extremes. But every parent I know either has or will. I'll bet your own parents have been known to do that from time to time.

 

[oakbar]

Hey pjkjr4,

I'm sorry you got sideswiped by the whole "Ace" debate.  The important thing is that you have the steer on the mend and I'm glad to hear that.  I hope things turn out well for you down the road!! 

As for the rest of you, lets not get into the whole debate again and drive away new SP people with our squabbling.  When someone asks for help, let's just try to help them with their immediate problem rather than lecture them on the fine points of our opinions on other topics.  To me, using Ace is about like speeding when your driving--it may not be legal but there's certainly a lot of people doing it.  Enough so that if we try to lecture every one of them we'll do nothing but get into arguments.  All they really needed to know was that there was a long enough time lapse that the use of Ace should not be a causing a problem with the animals breathing---no debate was necessary IMHO!!

 

[knabe]

My son, who was 7 at the time, was leading him in a pen by day3

this is the biggest flaw in your argument.  no matter how long people say the calf was calm, they at this point have NEVER gone through dealing with limits.  people tout these exception to the rule scenarios all the time and are just amazed that things can go wrong.  most cattle people in my mind, have NO concept of ground breaking and sacking out a horse the ray hunt/tom dorrance/ pat parelli method.  there are a couple of great steer videos out there that are basically the same technique.  it is not necessary to bring up the false argument that because someone doesn't have kids, that they don't have a valuable perspective on things, especially if their product is for kids and have to make a guarantee to make the customer happy and take calves back for behavior problems.  i have a daughter about ready to start showing at age 9, that's the rules in CA.  like i've said before, i've broken hundreds of calves, and there is absolutely NO WAY she's getting on the halter of a calf without being ground broke.  obviously that's my prerogative, but the notion that good experiences just keep happening is naive.  the personal attacks are an indication that something else is wrong.


Lastly....you don't have kids. You have NO CLUE (REALLY) as to what a parent will do out of love for their kids, even if it means bending the rules every now and then (slippery slope). Some will even go to obscene extremes (that's why we have jails). But every parent I know either has or will (obviously you don't know me, but i won't). I'll bet your own parents have been known to do that from time to time (donkey out of you but not me).

clear information is presented, and lashing out is such a good rule to bend, if you just talk louder, use more ad hominem attacks, i'm sure your kids will get the message.  kill the messenger.  it's a lesson not easily forgotten. 

 

[kimbaljd]

Hey pjkjr4,

I'm sorry you got sideswiped by the whole "Ace" debate.   The important thing is that you have the steer on the mend and I'm glad to hear that.  I hope things turn out well for you down the road!!   

As for the rest of you, lets not get into the whole debate again and drive away new SP people with our squabbling.   When someone asks for help, let's just try to help them with their immediate problem rather than lecture them on the fine points of our opinions on other topics.   To me, using Ace is about like speeding when your driving--it may not be legal but there's certainly a lot of people doing it.  Enough so that if we try to lecture every one of them we'll do nothing but get into arguments.   All they really needed to know was that there was a long enough time lapse that the use of Ace should not be a causing a problem with the animals breathing---no debate was necessary IMHO!!

AMEN! Its a wonder any new person on here would want to have anyhting to do with this site. This person asked a simple question and here we are three pages. We all know its illegal. They know by now. Let it rest.

 

[pjkjr4]

Knabe- Your point  is well taken, but you are missing the point of my whole argument....I clearly stated it once, as did a few others. Did I ask anyone's opinion on whether or not I should use Ace? No, I didn't. I asked merely if droopy ears and rales were a side effect. If that translates in another language to the question of the laws/ethics of the use of Ace in cattle, I apologize. That was not the intent. But when a person that doesn't know me or the circumstances, and that comes off as rude as she did, you bet I will strike back. Working with several kids doesn't hold a candle to having your own. Not a valid argument on her part. You'd think I was set up at the grade school sending crack rocks home with kids or something.

Is it unlawful? Yes, it is. Is it unethical? Some say yes, some say no. Depends on the person. Kinda like someone earlier said, speeding is against the law, and has much greater on the impact of human life than Ace ever did or ever will, but it has been done or will be done by everybody that gets behind the wheel.

I apologize to everyone who has read this whole debate. I have very stubborn German blood coursing throuh my veins.

 

[jason]

Hey pjkjr4,

I'm sorry you got sideswiped by the whole "Ace" debate.   The important thing is that you have the steer on the mend and I'm glad to hear that.  I hope things turn out well for you down the road!!   

As for the rest of you, lets not get into the whole debate again and drive away new SP people with our squabbling.   When someone asks for help, let's just try to help them with their immediate problem rather than lecture them on the fine points of our opinions on other topics.   To me, using Ace is about like speeding when your driving--it may not be legal but there's certainly a lot of people doing it.  Enough so that if we try to lecture every one of them we'll do nothing but get into arguments.   All they really needed to know was that there was a long enough time lapse that the use of Ace should not be a causing a problem with the animals breathing---no debate was necessary IMHO!!

Well said, back on topic, if you want to talk about the pros / cons of using ACE, start a new thread "pros and cons of using ace". 

 

[DL]

Hey pjkjr4,

  All they really needed to know was that there was a long enough time lapse that the use of Ace should not be a causing a problem with the animals breathing---no debate was necessary IMHO!!

Actually ace is a major tranquilizer/ sedative and can lead to central nervous system depression and decrease both the rate and depth of respiration - resulting in areas of the lung that are not well aerated and predisposed to pneumonia

 

[farwest]

I'm gonna say what someone else said to a couple folks commenting on this thread.  Blah blah blah blah blah. Only triple it. 

 

[Show Heifer]

I wasn't going to respond but since jill decided to chime in and "inform" everyone, heres the scoop that she left out on purpose

I do not have children of my own. It is none of your business why. But, I do assist with several 4-H groups and I am a FFA advisor. It doesn't matter if I gave birth to them, I will do my best for them, as if I was the parent. If you do not believe me, ask any adoptive parent on how THEY feel of their "not really a parent/child relationship"  relationship they have with the child they didn't give birth to......

pj, you ask how I advise both parents and youth how to deal with an animal that isn't a "show" animal due to attitude. I tell them, "There is a salebarn somewhere, having a sale. Find it." I teach "my" children that safety of themselves and of others, is much more important than getting a ribbon of any color. I teach them that there is a difference between being stubborn and being stupid. The difference is knowing when your stubbornness has turned into being stupid.
I also advice them after they sell the bad attitude animal to select their next animal with more care. Pay attention to how it acts, how the seller treats it, etc.  Yes, selling a steer at the salebarn will be "an expensive lesson to learn" but I have found, most of the time it isn't forgotten, and usually not repeated. 

Do what you feel you can do and sleep at night. If you can sleep at night, after (God forbid) you take a calf to the fair that is butting, kicking and getting away from your child, and that calf seriously hurts another child, then by all means, go for it.  I will tell you just like I tell my "kids".... For once, put yourself in anothers shoes.... how would you feel if another child took a wild calf to the fair and it hurt YOUR child? 


I wish you luck,  mainly for everyone else at your show.

Thats all I got to say about this......

 

[shortyjock89]

Seriously, I'd like it very much if the next time a moderator suggests that the good folks on here to drop something that they take it to heart.  This whole thing could have been avoided had some caution and consideration taken place.