Help understanding catalogs? TH Free by pedigree?

[OH Breeder]

I was reading a sale catalog and the statement in the paragraph about the female says ..."TH/PH Free by pedigree". But when I look above and see Dam: Double Vision x Snow Ball ( just an example not real pedigree but you get the idea). Now to me, Double vision IS a double carrier. I thought "TH/PH FREE BY PEDIGREE" meant there were no carriers in the calf's breeding? True or False?

I know its kind of buyer beware now adays. I would probably test regardless, but what if you are that unsuspecting first year Freddy or Frieda 4-H'er. The sale catalog said defect free pedigree?

 

[Doc]

Shawn, It means that any parent that has the possibility of being a carrier has been tested and has tested as free.

 

[OH Breeder]

seriously? TH Free by pedigree? I am asking cuz I don't understand that statement. If it said TH free by testing I would understand that. Maybe I am the slow one. I thought pedigree was free of genetic defects thereby stating free by pedigree. Thank you for that explanation.

 

[Doc]

I guess if they put "THF by testing" someone would assume you meant that particular animal. The other option would be "this animal is free of genetic defects due to the fact that it's parents have been tested free of genetic defects". I think most of these footnotes nowadays are long enough. When it says that I want to be able to see it listed on their pedigree on the association website though.

 

[DL]

My understanding of "TH free by pedigree" is that it refers to a specific animal and EITHER refers to an individual (1) any if animal in the "close up" (defined differently by different breeds for different defects) is a carrier the animal between the THC and the individual is tested free OR (2) there is no one obvious in the pedigree that is a carrier (this I think is often used in sale catalogs)

Both assume that the pedigree is correct - which may or may not be the case.

So for example you have a grand son of DS out of an Angus cow - his sire tests negative for both PHA and TH - the calf is TH and PHA free by pedigree - of course you have to check the pedigree and testing status to figure this out, and in this example it doesn't say anything about the carrier status for potential defects in the Angus dam

 

[aj]

What I think is hilarious......is that Shorthorn catalogs don't list birth weights. They don't even lie about it any more. I would advise the buyer to assume a shorthorn had a 110 pound birth weight unless noted other wise. This is what the breed has become.

 

[RyanChandler]

I don't think its as much that they choose not to list the bw, as it is that they don't know it.  A lot of the buyers are buying heifers to play w/ them in their backyard; performance is of no concern to them. 

I interpret it as DL has said. 

 

[justintime]

I can understand the confusion of "TH/PHA free by pedigree" but I think it is not anymore confusing as " TH/PHA free by testing".  I have always felt that when it states an animal is TH or PHA free by pedigree, that it means both parents have been proven to be free by testing.
In many breeds we are getting a few generations of cattle away from the first testing, and if you look on the breed websites you can see that some cattle are showing up 3 generations back that have been tested to be free.

As with everything else , it is always buyer beware, but I think anyone who stated an animal is free by pedigree is going to be certain this is the case.

 

[OH Breeder]

I can understand the confusion of "TH/PHA free by pedigree" but I think it is not anymore confusing as " TH/PHA free by testing".  I have always felt that when it states an animal is TH or PHA free by pedigree, that it means both parents have been proven to be free by testing.
In many breeds we are getting a few generations of cattle away from the first testing, and if you look on the breed websites you can see that some cattle are showing up 3 generations back that have been tested to be free.

As with everything else , it is always buyer beware, but I think anyone who stated an animal is free by pedigree is going to be certain this is the case.

@JIT.....I would agree except for I know the reputation of "some" sellers that have sales. I am with you on buyers beware. I from now on will assume that when i go to the Shorthorn website and look up parents that are carriers on both sides or one that they have tested the animal and then just test it myself for safety sake when a statement is made TH Free by pedigree. I never said I was the brightest bulb in the box, but your right better safe then sorry.

DL
(2) there is no one obvious in the pedigree that is a carrier (this I think is often used in sale catalogs)

AJ
Can't help you out on BW's. I guess that would be a call to our association. If it is a sponsored ASA sale then they should mandate BW's in catalog. JMO

 

[justintime]

I can understand the confusion of "TH/PHA free by pedigree" but I think it is not anymore confusing as " TH/PHA free by testing".  I have always felt that when it states an animal is TH or PHA free by pedigree, that it means both parents have been proven to be free by testing.
In many breeds we are getting a few generations of cattle away from the first testing, and if you look on the breed websites you can see that some cattle are showing up 3 generations back that have been tested to be free.

As with everything else , it is always buyer beware, but I think anyone who stated an animal is free by pedigree is going to be certain this is the case.

@JIT.....I would agree except for I know the reputation of "some" sellers that have sales. I am with you on buyers beware. I from now on will assume that when i go to the Shorthorn website and look up parents that are carriers on both sides or one that they have tested the animal and then just test it myself for safety sake when a statement is made TH Free by pedigree. I never said I was the brightest bulb in the box, but your right better safe then sorry.

DL
(2) there is no one obvious in the pedigree that is a carrier (this I think is often used in sale catalogs)

AJ
Can't help you out on BW's. I guess that would be a call to our association. If it is a sponsored ASA sale then they should mandate BW's in catalog. JMO

While testing mistakes are at a very low incidence, I am always gun shy and always do a second test on an animal if there is any carriers in the pedigree, especially if it is a bull I am going to promote.
I had a bad situation a few years ago, when I had a breeder wanting me to price a bull calf I had here. I would not price him as I knew his mother was a TH carrier, but I said if he was tested to be TH free, I would then price him. I sent the blood sample in, and the result was that this bull was TH free. I priced the bull and he was purchased by the people who had inquired in the first place. In some ways we were very fortunate, because this herd only had 1 TH carrier female and she was the second female to calve to this bull. She had a TH deformed calf. This was a devastating situation and I knew this bull had to have been a TH carrier for this to happen. He was the only bull on this farm, and there were no other bulls in the vicinity of this farm. When I contacted the lab that had done the testing, they told me there was no chance of the test being wrong, as they always ran a second test if there was any question, before they issued a test result to the owner. I had the bull owners send another sample to the lab for testing and the TH calf was taken to a vet college and was confirmed to be a TH calf. The bull tested as a TH carrier on the second test. The lab, after being threatened with a law suite by the bull owners, agreed to a settlement and the bull was sent to market. 
When I said we were fortunate, as if this TH Carrier cow had given birth to a normal calf, this bull could have sired many carriers for possibly several years, and no one would have possibly realized this. We were fortunate that the second calf born displayed the problem. I have heard of one other case of this happening, so I always do a second test if there is any possible chance.
The few carrier cows I have are used as recips, and only have a natural calf if they do not hold the embryo pregnancy. I see people routinely buying carrier females and I wonder if they understand what they are playing with. I can only hope they are diligent in doing proper testing.

 

[DL]

While testing mistakes are at a very low incidence, I am always gun shy and always do a second test on an animal if there is any carriers in the pedigree, especially if it is a bull I am going to promote.
I had a bad situation a few years ago, when I had a breeder wanting me to price a bull calf I had here. I would not price him as I knew his mother was a TH carrier, but I said if he was tested to be TH free, I would then price him. I sent the blood sample in, and the result was that this bull was TH free. I priced the bull and he was purchased by the people who had inquired in the first place. In some ways we were very fortunate, because this herd only had 1 TH carrier female and she was the second female to calve to this bull. She had a TH deformed calf. This was a devastating situation and I knew this bull had to have been a TH carrier for this to happen. He was the only bull on this farm, and there were no other bulls in the vicinity of this farm. When I contacted the lab that had done the testing, they told me there was no chance of the test being wrong, as they always ran a second test if there was any question, before they issued a test result to the owner. I had the bull owners send another sample to the lab for testing and the TH calf was taken to a vet college and was confirmed to be a TH calf. The bull tested as a TH carrier on the second test. The lab, after being threatened with a law suite by the bull owners, agreed to a settlement and the bull was sent to market. 
When I said we were fortunate, as if this TH Carrier cow had given birth to a normal calf, this bull could have sired many carriers for possibly several years, and no one would have possibly realized this. We were fortunate that the second calf born displayed the problem. I have heard of one other case of this happening, so I always do a second test if there is any possible chance.
The few carrier cows I have are used as recips, and only have a natural calf if they do not hold the embryo pregnancy. I see people routinely buying carrier females and I wonder if they understand what they are playing with. I can only hope they are diligent in doing proper testing.

JIT was this bull an Improver or Outcast mutation carrier? I remember at some time only the Improver deletion was routinely tested - did they tell you what the problem/issue was to incorrectly identify the status? ie clerical error, sampling error, etc

 

[justintime]

This bull was an Improver mutation. His carrier mother was a great grand daughter of Deerpark Improver. I am pretty certain that this was a case of human error in the lab and had little to do with the actual accuracy of the test. We like to think that this will not happen, but when there is a human factor involved, mistakes can happen.

 

[DL]

This bull was an Improver mutation. His carrier mother was a great grand daughter of Deerpark Improver. I am pretty certain that this was a case of human error in the lab and had little to do with the actual accuracy of the test. We like to think that this will not happen, but when there is a human factor involved, mistakes can happen.

Yup if we eliminate the human the test is about as close to 100% accurate as you can get. I find it interesting that Improver is implicated in DS as well as TH

 

[knabe]

What I think is hilarious......is that Shorthorn catalogs don't list birth weights. They don't even lie about it any more. I would advise the buyer to assume a shorthorn had a 110 pound birth weight unless noted other wise. This is what the breed has become.

and you have become a bitter old man with no solution.

 

[Okotoks]

In order to be TH free by pedigree in the Canadian Shorthorn herd book an animal must descend from ancestors that have all tested TH free. If there is TH carrier in the pedigree there has to be a TH free descendant that you are tracing to. There can be no direct traces to TH carriers without TH free animals in between. This is kept track of by the registry. We still have a couple of TH carrier cows and a heifer calf out of one tested TH free this year. If we now breed this THF heifer to TH free bulls the calves will be THF by pedigree because since the carrier gene is recessive it no longer exist in the resulting calves. I guess we still have the human error factor but we ourselves have just sent in all our junior sires to be TH tested just to confirm they are free.

 

[NHR]

What I think is hilarious......is that Shorthorn catalogs don't list birth weights. They don't even lie about it any more. I would advise the buyer to assume a shorthorn had a 110 pound birth weight unless noted other wise. This is what the breed has become.

and you have become a bitter old man with no solution.

LOL! Awesomeness  (clapping)