Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing

[RyanChandler]

You’re right- several of us do have photos.  Maybe more so than flat sided is how shallow his chest floor is.  This phenotype is nothing like the what I find desirable in the leader lines.

 

[oakview]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I have had tons of Leader line cattle over the years.  None of them approached the top and rear quarter shown by the photo of Royal Commando.

 

[RyanChandler]

Pretty is as pretty does.  And shallow chested bulls in my experience are much harder doing than the deep chested maternal types. 

‘Top’ and ‘rear quarter’.  Both terminal trait characteristics.  If I prioritized terminal trait characteristics, Charolais would likely be my breed of choice instead.

 

[librarian]

White bull reminds me a lot of a white ball dee royal commando son that was in the Oklahoma shorthorn sale 2017ish.  Same type as royal commando himself. To me that design appears exceptionally flat sided but the outcome may surprise me when crosses on some squattier type cows. 
I like a lot of these old bulls - wish those with access to semen on these bulls would breed them to native beef cows rather than the milking Shorthorns.  Anyone know of anyone doing this?

Lincoln Red might be the only beef type Native genetics around. Looking at that old photo of Perfect Countt made me wonder if there is any Lincoln Red in him.
I think the beef looking type Shorthorn cow you are talking about can be acquired by using Minn Max Leader semen on a good dual type Native cow  or any un-ruined Shorthorn cow. Max is scurred. I don't know why, but Max throws a consistently wide backed and wide, long hipped 1100 lb cow that anyone would want to own. I always look for bulls out of Max daughters. His daughters  are short and easy to pick out of a group of maternally related animals.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Bad uphill picture of a Coming 3 year old whos been Out on cows and hay again  after 2 months-New EPDS are very good including below 0 BWS calves all are consistent with those EPDS other than one which is as good as it gets-One of the better Commercial Shorthorn bulls available.No Trump.No Canadian  ( But Hed sure compliment them in type),No Native till way way back when they were around the first time HOT COMMODITYx WILDSIDE DAM x 60 years of  all performance-Jungels Byland, Lauer, Tiemans etc=PS Wildside was one of the longest lived walking bulls EVER-and a very llegit EZ calver as well-100 plus year old herd,who have performance tested since it was initated  O0

 

[librarian]

Well, it’s  a year later and I seem to have walked backwards into this. The bull I recently bought carries the F94L myostatin gene variant. Funny how pedigrees for progeny show genetic information not obvious in the pedigree of the parent animal.
As long as the phenotype is not extreme, I’m going to view F94L heterozygosity as a positive thing for beef production. Isn’t this the variant that has made Speckle Park such a carcass quality success?
I visually selected for it by family...just didn’t know it by DNA test. Odd thing is I thought I was selecting for type by maternal family.
So, based on all that research I did last year, my question is about how brown fat is stored in muscle and if this fat could possibly be in some form that is less visible do to smaller droplet size. I can understand that meat with more muscle fibers per unit area would be more tender. I’ve even heard of old style shorthorn beef being fine textured. But, for me soft fat is where it’s at for Omega 3 nutrition and grass finished flavor. I am accustomed to fat distributed in very small flecks in Galloway beef...so I’m not under the illusion that highly visible marbling is the only form of intramuscular fat. Can anyone help me sort out if myostatin inhibition, by reducing white fat storage, might increase “liquid fat” between muscle cells?

 

[librarian]

I was mistaken about the myostatin variant in Speckle Park, it’s nt821.
“There are a number of myostatin genes in cattle, which are responsible for expressing more/extra muscle growth, with nt821 being most relevant in the Speckle Park breed.” https://jadspecklepark.com.au/faqs/
This a disruptive variant and the one found in Angus. This makes perfect sense as Canadian Angus are such a crucial part of Speckle Park foundation genetics.
This is interesting..” In Aberdeen-Angus cattle Nt821 is a disruptive mutation of the Myostatin gene. It is the breed’s most common gene, and is also found in Galloway, Piedmontese and Limousin cattle.
There are six myostatin mutations, including Q204 found in Charolais, and F94L predominately found in Limousins. The Aberdeen-Angus Society has identified F94L in a small number of animals.”
Dr McAuley continued: “Research is on going in ROI, but approximately one third of all beef calves born in Northern Ireland are bred from a sire carrying the double muscle gene.” https://www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk/news-and-features/myostatin-genes-explained-at-aberdeen-angus-agm/

 

[librarian]

Speckle Park looks to be stacking myostatin and leptin mutations.

 

[Boreal]

I was mistaken about the myostatin variant in Speckle Park, it’s nt821.
“There are a number of myostatin genes in cattle, which are responsible for expressing more/extra muscle growth, with nt821 being most relevant in the Speckle Park breed.” https://jadspecklepark.com.au/faqs/
This a disruptive variant and the one found in Angus. This makes perfect sense as Canadian Angus are such a crucial part of Speckle Park foundation genetics.
This is interesting..” In Aberdeen-Angus cattle Nt821 is a disruptive mutation of the Myostatin gene. It is the breed’s most common gene, and is also found in Galloway, Piedmontese and Limousin cattle.
There are six myostatin mutations, including Q204 found in Charolais, and F94L predominately found in Limousins. The Aberdeen-Angus Society has identified F94L in a small number of animals.”
Dr McAuley continued: “Research is on going in ROI, but approximately one third of all beef calves born in Northern Ireland are bred from a sire carrying the double muscle gene.” https://www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk/news-and-features/myostatin-genes-explained-at-aberdeen-angus-agm/

I had a Galloway bull with nt821. His daughters certainly carry more muscle shape - especially in the hind quarter. They are a little harder calving, however, and I had some wrecks breeding him to other Galloway that I suspect were positive - before I knew about the mutations. I won’t say I’ll never use an nt821 bull again, but I’ll certainly be real cautious about it now.

 

[librarian]

Boreal, nt821 sounds undesirable to me. Anecdotally, Pete’s Top Gain might have carried it.
I’m still trying to figure out if F94L might be a cold climate adaptation. This is a good site, despite the word miniature in the title. I guess miniature cattle are a perfect storm for defects, so they need good information. Anyway, the Galloway variant is one of the disruptive ones” Six myostatin variants are “disruptive” mutations, which cause the "double-muscling" effect results from enlarged muscle cells. Three are “missense” mutations, which increase muscularity due to the animal having more muscle cells.”
http://www.miniature-cattle.com/article.dm.htm

 

[Boreal]

Boreal, nt821 sounds undesirable to me. Anecdotally, Pete’s Top Gain might have carried it.
I’m still trying to figure out if F94L might be a cold climate adaptation. This is a good site, despite the word miniature in the title. I guess miniature cattle are a perfect storm for defects, so they need good information. Anyway, the Galloway variant is one of the disruptive ones” Six myostatin variants are “disruptive” mutations, which cause the "double-muscling" effect results from enlarged muscle cells. Three are “missense” mutations, which increase muscularity due to the animal having more muscle cells.”
http://www.miniature-cattle.com/article.dm.htm

Yeah I’d say it’s largely undesireable - especially because there’s great cattle without it. I did quite a bit of research on myo a few years ago. Seems to be some upside to a few but a lot of downside to most. That always begged the question for me: why are they there? There has to be some evolutionary advantage to them, in certain circumstances, in order for them to persist in the population. My E226X bull, and my nt821 bulls, are/were the best footed bulls I’ve owned. I’m not sure there’s anything to it, but certainly that would confer some survival benefit.

 

[librarian]

Boreal, nt821 sounds undesirable to me. Anecdotally, Pete’s Top Gain might have carried it.
I’m still trying to figure out if F94L might be a cold climate adaptation. This is a good site, despite the word miniature in the title. I guess miniature cattle are a perfect storm for defects, so they need good information. Anyway, the Galloway variant is one of the disruptive ones” Six myostatin variants are “disruptive” mutations, which cause the "double-muscling" effect results from enlarged muscle cells. Three are “missense” mutations, which increase muscularity due to the animal having more muscle cells.”
http://www.miniature-cattle.com/article.dm.htm

Yeah I’d say it’s largely undesireable - especially because there’s great cattle without it. I did quite a bit of research on myo a few years ago. Seems to be some upside to a few but a lot of downside to most. That always begged the question for me: why are they there? There has to be some evolutionary advantage to them, in certain circumstances, in order for them to persist in the population. My E226X bull, and my nt821 bulls, are/were the best footed bulls I’ve owned. I’m not sure there’s anything to it, but certainly that would confer some survival benefit.

Same with this bull. He has those good hard red feet that cover a lot of ground and don’t wear out. Red and a little striped with black. I noticed his feet right away, and at almost 9 years his springs are still good...after a lot of hard work on North Dakota pastures, covering lots of cows for lots of years. Breeding is all about observation of environment x genetic interactions and sorting it out for product. That’s why I like Weston genetics. Maybe he knew the trade offs and selected for this particular mutation, dampening extremes by always putting muscle onto hard working milky cows. I can only guess.

 

[librarian]

Weston Romeo was one of my favourite bulls, I saw him at Weston in 1978 as an aged bull but he still had lots of muscle and very long hip. He was a TPS Coronet Leader 21st son.

Let’s talk about breeding combinations for a minute. What type of cow would (one infer) Romeo’s dam to have been and what would she bring to a Leader 21 cross? Instead of disputing the accuracy of the pedigrees, maybe we could just talk about overall type. Maybe there are pictures of the Weston herd.

 

[oakview]

I always liked that photo of Romeo.  However, the dam's side of the pedigree would be belt buckle cattle at best.  Leader 21's background, though he may have been somewhat an outlier himself, was the same. 

 

[beebe]

Doc had a son of Romeo that he called Too Tall, also he had a son named Fortune that was no where near belt buckle cattle.

 

[oakview]

I did not say Romeo, "Too Tall", Fortune, or any other Weston bull was a belt buckle creature.  I just pointed out that the ancestry of many of those animals contained almost completely very small framed animals.  You would be hard pressed to find a photo of one that was not.  We used a son of Weston Goliath for several years, I saw Fillet, White Count, Independence, and many other Weston bred cattle.  They were not belt buckle cattle.  There's no arguing the fact that their ancestors were.  The first champion bulls at the Iowa State Fair that I remember were WL Golden Glory, Royal Tartan King, and PF Nugget in the early 60's.  By today's standards they were probably 3 frame scores.
Virtually no one started talking about increased growth rate and frame size for several years and Leader 21, even noted as an outlier by his owner, came along at the right time.

 

[beebe]

I did not say Romeo, "Too Tall", Fortune, or any other Weston bull was a belt buckle creature.  I just pointed out that the ancestry of many of those animals contained almost completely very small framed animals.  You would be hard pressed to find a photo of one that was not.  We used a son of Weston Goliath for several years, I saw Fillet, White Count, Independence, and many other Weston bred cattle.  They were not belt buckle cattle.  There's no arguing the fact that their ancestors were.  The first champion bulls at the Iowa State Fair that I remember were WL Golden Glory, Royal Tartan King, and PF Nugget in the early 60's.  By today's standards they were probably 3 frame scores.
Virtually no one started talking about increased growth rate and frame size for several years and Leader 21, even noted as an outlier by his owner, came along at the right time.

I won't argue with anything you said.  I had a son of Fortune that was the best of the 4 Shorthorn bulls I had from Doc, today I would say he was a little too big.  He weighed 2300 and he stood much taller than he needed.  But sired consistent offspring.

 

[JohnWayne72]

I want to thank XBAR for asking the most pertinent question on this thread “Do any of these genetics still exist?”  Yes.  I know of several members of the Heritage Shorthorn Society who have these genetics, some of whom have posted on this thread.  The one I want to highlight is Wally Klose (Diamond K Shorthorns-Twin Bridges, Montana) who raises Heritage Influenced Shorthorns and owns a bull, Harvey Fulton 32A (ASA #4206631), who is the “spitting image” of Weston Romeo except he is bigger, thicker and still alive.  I have seen Harvey at different times of the year and he stays in amazing condition no matter what he has available to eat.  If you look closely at the Harvey pictures I have included you will see he is grazing on some of Wally’s “finest pasture”.  No Iowa corn for Harvey.  I am sure many of you know Wally and realize he runs a no frills operation.  They either make it or they are on a one way trip to town.  Harvey is sired by Kenmar President 26A and includes Kenmar Ransom 32Z, Pleasant dawn Seal 2nd, and HHFS Dream Weaver on his maternal side.  Wally’s market has always been the commercial cattlemen and he has made a living selling Shorthorns to that market for approximately 60 years.  Too bad there are not many Shorthorn breeders left that have his “MO” (modus operandi for Dragnet fans).

Kenmar President 26A semen is now available.  Check out https://www.facebook.com/Sherbeck-Farms-104143464975511

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Bodied down some with age O0

 

[Duncraggan]

What a bull!