how big is too big

[Joe Boy]

I think EPD's are good IF the numbers have been put in place correctly.  I report all my calves even if I do not register them, unless for some reason I sell them as a baby with their mother, and even then I report the BW.

I want my calves to weigh heavy at sale time and to be easy fleshing with above moderate frame and bone.  I have not gotten there.  I have big ones and little ones and try to breed by EPD's to get the big ones more moderate and the littler ones larger.  I have been disappointed with some AI bulls which show they grow well on yearling and weaning weights.  BW's do not show the size of a baby calves head and shoulders either, so we still have to ask questions to others who have used the bulls.  That is why I like this forum.

 

[ghostrider]

I personally think that some breeders have really messed up their herds by going overboard with EPDs... especially in the angus breed. I used to walk into the Denver pens of some major Angus breeders and marvel at the tremendous thick topped, deep sided, soggy bulls they had in the pens. Now I walk in, and see these round topped, finer boned, short bodied little bulls that are supposed to have tremendous carcass EPDs. Quite frankly, they are poor cattle, and I for one think they had much better cattle 10 years ago. I have also seen some real messes when cattlemen chase milk EPDs far too much. I strongly believe that too much milk is as bad or worse than too little milk in a herd. There is an opyimum point in all traits, and if you go too far, you start losing something. Selecting for too much milk usually leads to lose of fleshing ability and hardiness........ selecting for too much muscle usually ends up with loss of fertility and mothering ability. etc etc . EPDs are a tool, and only that.  It seems everything in life is best if used in moderation. I am beginning to think that EPDs fall into this catagory as well.

Very true, justintime. EPD's might end up being the downfall of the Angus breed.

 

[chambero]

I personally think that some breeders have really messed up their herds by going overboard with EPDs... especially in the angus breed. I used to walk into the Denver pens of some major Angus breeders and marvel at the tremendous thick topped, deep sided, soggy bulls they had in the pens. Now I walk in, and see these round topped, finer boned, short bodied little bulls that are supposed to have tremendous carcass EPDs. Quite frankly, they are poor cattle, and I for one think they had much better cattle 10 years ago. I have also seen some real messes when cattlemen chase milk EPDs far too much. I strongly believe that too much milk is as bad or worse than too little milk in a herd. There is an opyimum point in all traits, and if you go too far, you start losing something. Selecting for too much milk usually leads to lose of fleshing ability and hardiness........ selecting for too much muscle usually ends up with loss of fertility and mothering ability. etc etc . EPDs are a tool, and only that.  It seems everything in life is best if used in moderation. I am beginning to think that EPDs fall into this catagory as well.

Very true, justintime. EPD's might end up being the downfall of the Angus breed.

I'm not much on EPDs at all, but I'll doubt they'll be the downfall.  Primarily because the vast majority of buyers probably feel the same about them as we do.  If they have good numbers fine, but I still pick em based on what they look like and what I know about an overall program. 

We've got a ranch dispersing near us.  They've bought very expensive Angus cattle from Gardiners and the like.  They kind of let the Angus Assoc. folks tell them what to do.  At the urging of their sale management they just got through cutting I don't know how many head (dozens) of yearling bulls because they didn't want to register them.  So they are selling them at steer prices instead of commercial bull prices.  That ignorance is what will run many an Angus breeder out of business quicker than faked EPDs even.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I think EPD's are good IF the numbers have been put in place correctly.  I report all my calves even if I do not register them, unless for some reason I sell them as a baby with their mother, and even then I report the BW.

I want my calves to weigh heavy at sale time and to be easy fleshing with above moderate frame and bone.  I have not gotten there.  I have big ones and little ones and try to breed by EPD's to get the big ones more moderate and the littler ones larger.  I have been disappointed with some AI bulls which show they grow well on yearling and weaning weights.  BW's do not show the size of a baby calves head and shoulders either, so we still have to ask questions to others who have used the bulls.  That is why I like this forum.

Joe Boy - EPD's would be great if everyone was honest in their turned in data, but those of us who turn in real data on every calf that hits the ground are penalized by those that manipulate their data before it is turned in. I've been around long enough to have seen alot of trends and fads come and go and for the most part the ones that pursue the extremes in whatever fad or trait is the "flavor of the month" will eventually weed themselves out when the people that they market their cattle to find out that the extremes are not nessassarily the best option. Good, sound, functional cattle never really go out of style but they sometimes get over shadowed for a time by all of the smoke and mirrors.

 

[TJ]

Posted by ROAD WARRIOR...
"Good, sound, functional cattle never really go out of style but they sometimes get over shadowed for a time by all of the smoke and mirrors."

^^^  Very true... very true.

 

[jimmyski]

I personally think that some breeders have really messed up their herds by going overboard with EPDs... especially in the angus breed. I used to walk into the Denver pens of some major Angus breeders and marvel at the tremendous thick topped, deep sided, soggy bulls they had in the pens. Now I walk in, and see these round topped, finer boned, short bodied little bulls that are supposed to have tremendous carcass EPDs. Quite frankly, they are poor cattle, and I for one think they had much better cattle 10 years ago. I have also seen some real messes when cattlemen chase milk EPDs far too much. I strongly believe that too much milk is as bad or worse than too little milk in a herd. There is an opyimum point in all traits, and if you go too far, you start losing something. Selecting for too much milk usually leads to lose of fleshing ability and hardiness........ selecting for too much muscle usually ends up with loss of fertility and mothering ability. etc etc . EPDs are a tool, and only that.  It seems everything in life is best if used in moderation. I am beginning to think that EPDs fall into this catagory as well.

JIT,
I pretty much completely agree with you and I also like what RW said. You should be selecting for cattle that will work for you, not cattle that you have to work for. I believe that more often than not, too many breeders fall into the latest fad. Unfortunately alot of the time this is the new and special EPD. While I am working towards an advanced degree in genetics, I also realize the importance of production traits to a cow herd. If more people would be willing to open up their minds to new ideas and realize that Phenotypic selection is just as important as EPD's then we could all be a lot farther along in the cattle business. I know a lot of people pick on the Angus breed (me definitely included here), but what breed does a better job of marketing their cattle. Not one!!! The biggest problem that I have with them is that they think they can just keep throwing out new EPD's and expect everyone else to follow. They are getting to the point that I have now clue what each one of them is supposed to mean. We (the Universities) need to focus more on evaluation of the ERT's (Economically Relevant Traits) and see if we can improve upon what is already out there before we come up with all these new Epd's that no one is able to comprehend. RW is completely right that good,sound functional cattle will always be there, unfortunately it is the road less traveled my many in our great industry today.