How "commercial" are you?

[itk]

Since we have had a good discussion about the differences between purebred and commercial cattle operations, I thought I would ask some everyday delimas that face cattle producers just to see how we would respond in different situations. My answers are at the end.

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?

1. The cow isn't going anywhere as long as it's not her fault the calf dies.

2. Time to start a fall program. With a new bull of course.

3. There is something about daughters and daddys. I just might will the farm to that cow. No way that cow is leaving unless my girl says it is ok.

4. I might sell her since I have a daughter to take her place but you just never know I might give her one more chance.

5. DL has to make a living to I would treat the cow.

6. If it is a common cow she is out of here. However if she stood second in her class at Louisville was an All-American and was supreme female at the largest show in Kansas she stays.

7. I would hold them over and pray I still have a very understanding banker.

8. Looks like I'm cooking corn and hauling water buckets.

 

[showsteerdlux]

1. Keep her

2.Sell Bull, Give cows one chance on new bull.

3. Sell depending on how old and salvage value.

4.Give one more chance to breed then packing house.

5.Depends on age of cow, but usually yes

6. Depends on cow, but probably automatic trip to packers after she weans calf.

7. If 100% sure hay was cause, keep cows, but look at other possible problems.

8. Keep her, shes still producing.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

1 - If she is my most profitable cow - I will probably flush her and rebreed her.
2 - Cull the bottom out of the open cows - realistically should have seen cows recycleing in the pasture before preg check time.
3 - Sell the cow - permanently open cows cost too much money
4 - Sell the cow
5 - sell the cow
6 - Sell the cow  - been there done that!
7 - Cull the bottom out
8 - It would be rare that my best cow is old (genetic progression) - sell her

 

[aj]

O.K. for everybodies entertainment I'll bite.  1. Sell the cow because if she doesn't raise a calf she is not profitable she is a hay burner.    2.I would probably do a fall program but I would hopefully notice in time females cycling to try another bull.   3.Sell the cow. Your daughter will learn a life lesson.  4.Sell the cow if she is amaximum indexer that is probably why she didn't breed back. Optimums are better.   5. I would shoot her in the head and end her suffering with a quick clean kill.   6.If I can't get a bwt on calf Id sell her. I like cows to lean on me but not attack.  7. What are you feeding hay for? The reason for ruminants is to utilize low quality roughage and convert it to a high protein product. Hay should be fed only in emergencies and in developing bull and heifer calves. I would utilize cornstalks and pasture. 8.If she requires extra attention I would sell her. If she is that old to have a bad quarter and yet raises a calf I would keep her and give her a brownie point for her stayability.

 

[DL]

GOOD QUESTION!!

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?
MANAGEMENT MISTAKE - COW STAYS - PRODUCER NEEDS TO GO TO FENCING SCHOOL AND DO 40 MEA CULPAS

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?
BULL GOES
SINCE I PREG CHECK AT 30 TO 60  DAYS AND AGAIN LATER I SHOULD HAVE PICKED THIS UP BEFORE -
BUT IN THIS SCENERIO IF COWS ARE REPRODUCTIVELY NORMAL AND I DECIDE THEY DIDN'T ABORT FROM SOMETHING - EITHER FALL PROGRAM OR THOSE WITH STRIKES AGAINST (ON THE SHORT LIST) GO

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?
TOUGH ONE! SELL THE KID KEEP THE COW - WOOPS BACKWARDS

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?
GONE

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?
YES

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?
GONE

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?
I AM A STUPID PERSON FOR FEEDING BAD HAY - COWS SHOULD NOT PAY FOR MY MISTAKE - MIGHT CULL THOSE ON THE SHORT LIST, BUT HAVE WORKED TOO HARD ON THE GENETICS TO DUMP THEM ALL FOR MY ERRORS

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?
PROBABLY - I HAVE AN OLD BEST COW - SHE HAS 4 QUARTERS AND 2 GOOD EYES AND SHE STILL BREEDS BUT SHE WILL PROBABLY BE HERE FOREVER 

 

[Rocky Hill Simmental]

1. Keep the cow. If she's profitable she'll have another calf.

2. Get rid of the bull. If they are normally high producing cows, the test was probably wrong.

3. My first bucket heifer is sterile and my dad said I could keep her anyway. I still have her even though she's fat and useless. So if I had kids I wouldn't sell their first calf unless they made the choice.

4. Give her a shot and give her one more chance. If she fails to get bred, then she's gone. Her last calf can just stay in the herd.

5. If she's old, I wouldn't have the cow treated. She had a good life.

6. She's gone. I wouldn't have a cow like that.

7. Cull the old ones, keep the young ones and get some new hay.

8. Get rid of her. Those cancer eyes look painful.

 

[red]

Good thread! My answers are in red!

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow? Unless she pushed it, not her fault
2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows? I'd be watching the bull to make sure he's doing it right & making sure my mineral program up to par

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?Sorry but yes to the calf

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow? depends on how old & if it's the first time.
5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated? Depends on the cow. I'd probably but the hubby might not
6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow? Got one just like that. I just carry a rubber pipe w/ me

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows? Get them detoxed & rebreed. Keep a better eye on feedstuffs
8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow? I claim my big red cow will be stuffed when she dies. Does that give you an idea?

 

[DLD]

Good questions. Just for fun, I hit reply before I read anyone else's.



1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?

She stays.


2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?

I think I'd take a good hard look at my nutrition program and have some bloodwork run on my cows to see if there's another problem. Would also have the bull tested again by someone else. If everything shows up clean I'd probably can the bull and roll the cows over to next season (I calve both fall and spring anyway).


3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?

Yes. My son has already had to give up a couple of his old show heifers because they wouldn't breed (after exhausting all possibilities) or milk . I try to teach them that they're all going to go sooner or later, and the ultimate goal of raising cattle is beef, so if they've reached the end of their reproductive ability, it's their time to become beef and make room for another cow. I don't think hauling them to the sale barn is any tougher for the kids than going out in the pasture and finding them dead (or worse yet down and/or suffering).

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?

Well, I don't keep track of indexing to begin with. If you mean she's raised my best heifer calf (or bull/steer), then she certainly gets another season to see if she'll breed.

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?

There's no way of guaranteeing she'll be fine after the surgery. I'd have to weigh in alot of factors - the true expectation of her recovery, her age and her potential for raising something special. I lost an 8 year old 734 daughter a couple of years ago that I'd gladly have spent $600 on for even a 50/50 chance at her recovering enough to be able to breed and/or flush. On the other hand if it's a common cow with the same odds, I'm probably going to euthanise her.

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?

Probably not. If she's a really special one and gets over it by the time the calf's a few days old, I might... Probably not, though - life's too short.

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?

Roll them over to next season. As with all the other questions concerning cows not raising calves, I'd certainly take the opprotunity to cull anything I was close to getting rid of anyway, but the good cows certainly get another chance.

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?

If she's good enough to flush and I hadn't yet done so, I'd try to flush her, but then she's gone. (refer to answer #3)

 

[chambero]

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?

Not the cows fault.  We had a calf get into a tank and drown shortly after birth this year.

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?

Although we test bull before putting out, we watch cows to see if he have lots coming in heat after the first or second cycle.  In big pastures, we'll leave a bull two cycles then replace him to keep this from happening.

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?

Sold.  That's part of life.

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?

We don't index.  However, mature cows are allowed one open year without getting shipped.  If they miss two calves, they are gone. 
Heifers only get one chance.  If they don't breed the first time in a 90 day window, they don't get a second year.  We do usually have several each year that don't breed on the second calf, particularly if they were later calving.  They get a second chance the next year.

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?
I haven't ever heard of a real example of this.  In fact, I don't know what kind of surgery would get a cow back up.  Surgery is usually useless.

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?
I've never seen this long term either.  We have some that get very defensive for the first couple of weeks, but they chill out pretty quickly. 

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?
We don't feed much hay and we calve in the fall so this isn't an issue for us.  However, I'd keep the cows.

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?
If she is raising a big calf she stays until the eye becomes a humane issue at which case she'd be put down.

 

[kanshow]

Great Thread!  Great Answers!

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?    Most likely keep her .. would probably try to foster a calf onto her if at all possible. 

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?  I would hope we would notice all the recycling before it got that far.  I'd probably be running some checks on the cows but if it was the bull.. he's gone.  The short list cows would go and the better ones might be converted to fall calving.

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?  BTDT this year....  sad sad day but that's life on the farm. 

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?  GONE

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?  Depends on which cow it is... 

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?    Let her raise this calf and at weaning, she's gone. 

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?  Gosh...  well..  I'd like to think we do a pretty good job of checking any questionable feedstuffs before we feed them.  We run nutrient tests on a lot of the hay, silage, etc.    Again.. short listers would go and others might be given another chance in a fall calving situation. 

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?
Did you visit our place this summer.... That pair spent the summer in the horse pasture by the house.  Really for us it depends on how bad the eye is...  Since you can't sell them with CE, you just as well let them raise the calf until they get to a point where they have to be euthanized.    Can't really send them to pasture in this situation so they do get some special care.  We had a couple young bulls in the pasture with our old cow and she happened to breed right back.  Her eye is looking pretty dismal at this point though. 

 

[shortyisqueen]

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow? Early in the year - graft a new calf on or possibly flush her and sell the eggs so she's still paying her way. Late in the year - probably keep her over, as she's already bred.

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows? I don't think this would ever happen at our place. We only breed for 42 days (1 cycle to AI services, and 1 cycle to the bull) and are watching like hawks for anything that missed their AI date. If most of the cows that were bred to the bull in the first cycle came back on the second cycle, we'd be pretty leary. By the third cycle, they'd be in with a different clean-up bull. Theoretically, we'd only be a month late, but nothing we couldn't catch them up on the next year.

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)? Bucket calves never stay at our place. So yes, indeedy, she' be gone!

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow? Gone. If she's a young cow, and she's open already, I would rethink keeping her daughter.

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated? Like others have said, it depends on the cow. If she was one of our donors, she'd probably get surgery. If she was a so-so cow, she's not worth the bill.

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow? No matter how good the cow is, she's not worth risking our lives over. Our maternity pen is a rectangular pen with a flake of second-cut hay. If we can't walk up to the cow after she calves and do all we need to do with her calf, that's a ticket to the trailer.

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows? Goodness. This is a tough one. Cry? Is that an option? I think this is one of those losses you'd just have to stomach and keep the cows. I like to think I would notice from the condition, hair coat, and general comfort of the cattle if something was wrong with the food.

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow? If she can raise a calf, she can stay (she's not worth much now anyways), but without too much special treatment (she still has to pull her weight). If she's my best cow, she's probably worth flushing and getting as many eggs as possible before she has to go, so that might be a more profitable option than letting her raise one more calf.

Nice topic, ITK! I don't know if this is a survey about commercial vs. purebred, but I do think its interesting to see the differences in what we all expect of our cattle. It really goes to show that perhaps none of us 'are wrong' but we all have a different way of building our genetics through environment alone. I'm curous though...what would be the 'commercial' answers to this quiz...? I have seen some commercial cattlemen cull ruthlessly and others never cull...for anything!!!

 

[itk]

Look back at how many answers contain flushing a cow then think about how many commercial operations you know of that utilize et. Also to most profitable cow in a commercial setting might only bring in a extra $100 a year, if the calf dies before the cow re-breeds is she still worth keeping. In most cases a butcher cow is barely worth $600, so is it better to cut your losses. Don't let my little blip here stop the answers from coming. There have been some great responses so far so keep them coming. I just wanted to put a little "real world" spin on things or I guess I should have just told everyone to read aj's post.

 

[aj]

I think this deal started when I butted heads with itk over the durham red concept. I think purebred people(who are aiming at the commercial industry) should listen to them. The commercial person is not some lowly person who does not get to show cattle. They are the industry. I think selection pressure is more important then how pure an animal is or if they were all american or first in class. Excellent post itk. Darn it I still like my dr's.

 

[chambero]

The reality is a mature open cow doesn't bring hardly anything at the sale barn.  If there is a good chance to get another calf out of them, you are better off keeping them on one miss especially unless you are over stocked. 

We keep old grannies for that same reason.  We usually have the room and that one more calf will bring more than the momma will at a sale barn.

 

[rtnok]

1. Try again. 
     
2. Fall calvers. Sell bull.

3.Sold

4.Sold

5.Shoot.

6.Keep. We have a lot of calf stealing around here.Plus varmits big cats,coyotes and such.

7. Cull old and poor producers.keep the rest.

8.Wean calf then shoot.



     

 

[pigguy]

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?
keep her wait to rebreed her

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?
check my nutrition program, get some blood work done on the cows if all looks good then i would get rid of the bull but if somethign was worng i would keep the bull

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?
most of our bucket calves are gone after we get the first calf and bred back

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?
keep the cow, give her some TLC and get her bred back

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?
depends on which one it is

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?  agian keep her depnding on the cow

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows? looks like a time to cull and breed back


8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?
Time for some TLC

 

[itk]

I think this deal started when I butted heads with itk over the durham red concept. I think purebred people(who are aiming at the commercial industry) should listen to them. The commercial person is not some lowly person who does not get to show cattle. They are the industry. I think selection pressure is more important then how pure an animal is or if they were all american or first in class. Excellent post itk. Darn it I still like my dr's.

I agree with you on the concept of DRs. But I also agree with the concept of Marxism, Communism and Camelot. We all know however in real life these concepts just don't work. The dr program is the same as these idealistic ideas. The current state of the shorthorn breed and cattle industry make this wonderful program a almost unattainable dream. There are simply to few females in the shorthorn breed right now to fit and fill any commercial demand as far as DR females go and most commercial cow herds all ready contain to many crosses to maximise any heterosis a DR bull might offer. Aj, Karl Marx and King Arthur will go down in history as great dreamers who might never seem their dreams come to life, still AJ you get my respect for not giving up hope.

 

[knabe]

is AJ lancelot (without the downside)?  go AJ.  a brief and shining moment is too short.

LANCELOT:
Camelot! Camelot!
In far-off France I heard your call.
Camelot! Camelot!
And here am I to give my all.
I know in my soul what you expect of me,
And all that and more I shall be.

A knight of the Table Round should be invincible,
Suceed where a less fantastic man would fail.
Climb a wall no one else can climb,
Cleave a dragon in record time,
Swim a moat in a coat of heavy iron mail.
No matter the pain, he ought to be unwinceable,
Impossible deeds should be his daily fare.
But where in the world
Is there in the world
A man so *extraordinaire*?

C'est moi! C'est moi, I'm forced to admit.
'Tis I, I humbly reply.
That mortal who
These marvels can do,
C'est moi, c'est moi, 'tis I.
I've never lost
In battle or game;
I'm simply the best by far.
When swords are crossed
'Tis always the same:
One blow and au revoir!
C'est moi! C'est moi! So adm'rably fit!
A French Prometheus unbound.
And here I stand, with valour untold,
Exeption'ly brave, amazingly bold,
To serve at the Table Round!

The soul of a knight should be a thing remarkable,
His heart and his mind as pure as morning dew.
With a will and a self-restraint
That's the envy of ev'ry saint
He could easily work a miracle or two.
To love and desire he ought to be unsparkable,
The ways of the flesh should offer no allure.
But where in the world
Is there in the world
A man so untouched and pure?
(C'est moi!)

C'est moi! C'est moi, I blush to disclose.
I'm far too noble to lie.
That man in whom
These qualities bloom,
C'est moi, c'est moi, 'tis I.
I've never strayed
From all I believe;
I'm blessed with an iron will.
Had I been made
The partner of Eve,
We'd be in Eden still.
C'est moi! C'est moi! The angels have chose
To fight their battles below,
And here I stand, as pure as a pray'r,
Incredibly clean, with virtue to spare,
The godliest man I know!
C'est moi!

 

[aj]

I don't get the link between communism and the durham red program but I am assuming that I won't need to save back a durham red bull for you.

 

[Jill]

We are not commercial at all

1.Your most profitable cow's calf falls off a creek bank and dies. What do you do with the cow?  Better luck next year

2.Your bull passes his breeding exam however when you preg check cows only 10% of the cows he was with are settled. What would you do with the cows?  The bull here only breeds a handful of cows a year, depends if they are on the cull list or not.

3.Your daughter's first bucket calf is getting some age and will no longer breed. Do you sell her(the cow not your daughter)?  Oh that you are so lucky as to have a daughter #1 and #2 never under ANY cercomstances would any of my children show a bucket calf!

4.The dam of your highest indexing heifer calf comes up open. What do you do with the cow?  Not really sure what an indexing heifer is, but it depends if she is on the cull list or not

5.A cow goes down in the pasture. You can save her life and she will be fine after the surgery but the vet bill will be $600. Do you get the cow treated?  Depends on the problem and depends on the cow, for a donor and surgery would leave her fine, you bet

6.You have a easy going cow who is a dream to work with however as soon as she has a calf you can not go within 50 ft of the calf without her charging you. Do you keep the cow?  If it's only right at calving yes

7.Your cows start aborting calves a month before they are do. Turns out there is a toxin in the hay you have been feeding them. Half of the cows lose their calves what do you do with the cows?  I really like the cry answer at this point, depends if they were on the cull list

8.Your best cow is getting old. She develops cancer eye and only milks out of three quarters but can still raise a calf with much TLC. What do you do with the cow?
My best cow will die on my place and she will raise a calf as long as she is able

I don't own enough ground or have the resources to go "commercial" nor do I care to, the commercial environment is very different from a show stock producers and I would guess not many on this board fit that bill, good post.