How do you select your A.I. sires?

[ZNT]

When it comes time to put in that semen order, what criteria do you use to pick what semen to order?  There are so many factors that influence our decisions.  Just curious what makes you pull the trigger when ordering semen on a bull.  I know we all use all of these criteria when picking, but when you really sit down and think about it, what is it that makes you ultimately pick certain bull over the 100's available?

 

[Freerider]

Other - Pedigree is really important, ie. has this pedigree combination been successful before?

I also look at the conformation of the bull, and see if he meets the criteria for the particular cow that I'll be using him on.

 

[cornish]

80% personal viewing of the bull, or with words from someone I trust who's viewed him- or quantities of offspring.

20% pedigree-- as long as the pedigree is correct-- pedigrees most often don't lie- and if you study them close enough-- they will breed on with a predictable accuracy. 

I probably fall back on pedigrees harder than that-- if they are accurate and believable--  as it's really hard to get out and view all the potential bulls that are available. 

I tend to shy away from the bulls that get promoted really hard, and are owned by certain parties.  Most of these deals are just flavors of the month...  I tend to shy towards bulls that are owned by true breeders, and people that I might think they know what they are doing, or atleast have done good at it. 

I really like to pick up genetics from the poorest feeders, and terrible fitters- you know the little guy...  IMPE, those are the truly good breeding tools.  I call them tools, not pieces.  I hate the word pieces. 

 

[ZNT]

I had to ask the question since most of us never see these A.I. sires in person, yet there are a lot of very strong opinions on which are the best bulls. 

I will admit, a great picture will get my attention first.  It's really hard to use a bull that does not have a great promo picture.  Doesn't mean they are not good, it's just hard to pick them when there are so many well pictured (and fitted) ones out there.  After seeing the picture, I evaluate their pedigree, defect status, birth weights, etc, to see if the bull fits the vision of our operation.  Next I will either contact the breeder, or a good friend of mine that has seen or used the bull.  I like to use bulls from honest, transparent breeds who I can trust the pedigrees and ages of their cattle.  I will take the word from guys like Dennis Garwood, and order semen right there over the phone.  Lastly, not a great reason, but true, is the price and location of the semen.  It costs money to ship semen, and to me, no bull is worth more than about $50, unless it is being strictly used for flushing or IVF.

I think the"Photoshop Ethics" post really adds some relevance to this post.  We do put a lot of weight on a picture, and are we, as an industry relying too much on this to make our breeding decision.  Like I said, I am guilty just the same.

 

[farmboy]

What's popular #1
Complimentary traits #2
Breeder #3

If you can make #1 and #2 click, #3 can promote your cattle for you

 

[jbzdad]

conformation and ability to complement the cow I am using

I think the bull needs to be promoted or from well known national genetics.. at least for breeding stock.. unless you are a known  breeder the genetics need to be known .. you do need to sell what you raise sometime!!... current well known genetics ... BPF, Nowatzke, GVC. and I add DMCC to that list.. maybe blind badger, Buck  and Yardley... there are some of those I would "trust" their genetics more than others..

well known bulls like Irish Whiskey, Habenero,Lifeline etc have their own cultures

there are some other later bulls/owners I really like ... just not enough Mommas to try them all ... Montego, Hard whiskey, Rumor mill ... those just off the top of my head... and I only will use about 20 straws total this year

would be nice to know how many straws different people buy

 

[cornish]

would be nice to know how many straws different people buy

most often 10 straws here on a new trial run... sometimes 20 if i get a bargain of a deal. 

I don't pay shipping- I either get it delivered to a fair, show, sale, or an expo that I'm attending, but prefer to pick it up in person from the breeder as I view the bull/ their cattle.  It takes some planning and sticking to your guns-- but in the long run-- I think it's better this way.  If I pick all of my semen up in Feb- then I don't have the pleasure of changing my mind once the bull of the year comes out and starts freezing as a baby.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I can care less who owns the bulls I use. I use most of the main semen supply companies with Cattlevisions and Topsires the most. I don't pay for shipping either, I order my semen before shows and when I drive back to see my family in Missouri as I drive rite past Cattlevisions. But I don't understand why some people just hate some owners cause they have alot of winning bulls. I breed club calf so I buy club calf except I breed alot of my heifers to PB bulls that are easy calving and used some PB bulls when I want to get some replacement heifers. I use bulls that are winning and cost of semen is important to me also, those are the two most important to me. I have semen from all the big bull owners, I have no prejudice to any of the bull owners.

 

[cornish]

What's popular #1
Complimentary traits #2
Breeder #3

If you can make #1 and #2 click, #3 can promote your cattle for you

so, would you rather use what's popular, before or after it's popular? 

Does a dog that's chasing it's tail-- is the head in front of the tail, or the tail in front of the head?

Is it cat/ mouse game of follow the leader?

 

[farmboy]

If you can use the ones that stay popular in their first year (lets take Bodacious for instance) and get a decent calf, you're in good position. How many of Lautners 100 new bulls every year are never heard from again?

 

[McM93]

Great post. I think we have to be really honest with ourselves, we go with the "pic" more than we would like to believe. I really try not to use new unproven bulls, I like to pick a couple of ones that I like the "pic" of and try to find their offspring the next year. I still like the pic Paddy took as well as any out there bar none, but PHAC carrier status pretty much excluded him from list(s) over the years. I am intrigued by bulls that don't sell 30 gazillion units (we all know that if you throw enough crap on the wall some of it will stick) that have had a winner or two out there and/or winners out of their daughters. On that list for me right now are Eyes on the Money, Dr. Hook and his brother Captain Hook (leading into my next thought). I also like bulls out of cows that have produced more than one herd sire. It may be years down the road, but I will use Real Deal and his Summit brother (too lazy to look now for his name... (lol)) on a group of Angus based females at some point because evidently C-17 is a special female. Agree with previous posters, paying shipping is taboo. Road trips are money better spent for me... <party>
Another random thought is that You Tube videos have made me swear off of a very popular sire (I am still naive enough to think mature bulls need to be athletic) and really made me want to try Fire Water and new Red Angus bull Firestorm on something... (clapping)
On a related tangent, I do have a nice Montego Bay spring steer that I will try to get pics of soon.... (angel)

 

[Aussie]

ZNT good post to get you thinking. Breeding Angus is a lot like club calves in as much as a new wave of the best of the best every year. Over the last few years I have changed my tact from using the latest and greatest promoted to sires with a few more runs on the board. To many disappointments Integrity could be a good example.
Now selection is on

• Pedigree. Containing proven gentices Good maternal plus son or grand son of a bull I know works
• Forums from people I trust. You guys can have calves on the ground before a bull is released here.
• Breeders I know well. I have a good network of honest breeders
• Figures. I do not breed on figures but would I use the best looking bull if his figures were crap if I was honest no.
• Cattle at shows. Working at shows you get to see a lot of a new bulls progeny and the wash rack is the best place to view them  

In saying all that I still weaken and throw in a wild card with a good pic now and again.  :

 

[linnettejane]

i evaluate each of my cows individually and determine what areas they need improvement, then i look for th and pha free bulls that can address those areas

 

[cornish]

• • the wash rack is the best place to view them 

  
  for a short pointless story:  few years ago at denver, friend of mine and I were walking and checking-- and came across a white bull headed back from the wash racks.  As we got closer- it became obvious this bull was very narrow and worthless, as we passed each other- we realized and told each other-- that bull had better not walk on slats-- as he would fall through.  After going about 40 foot in the opposite direction- we decided to turn around and see what bull that was... followed him back to where he was going-- and figured out who he was. 
  
  Ended up picking up a handful of the stickers highlighting that bull-- and slapped on on my registration paper binder... just so every time I see it, I'm reminded exactly how worthless he was. 
  
  Now here we are probably 3 years later-- and I bet that bull didn't sire 50 calves-- but they sure spent alot in getting him to Denver. 
  
  ETA: just for giggles, i went to look this bull up- and he's sired 12 offspring-- about 90% of which are from his owners...  hmm hAHA.

 

[DL]

I look at his daughters - longevity, attitude, udders, calving interval etc
I look at the pedigree & his EPDs esp CE, WW and stayability
I talk to people I respect who have seen the bull but have no dog in the fight
I ask the owner/breeder specific questions
then I buy the semen - if I like the calves he sires I buy more

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

I have a little advantage over alot of people as I see literally thousands of red angus cattle a year in both the U. S. and Canada. I see sire groups from many various opporations and many different genetic combinations. I also see most of the bulls that are promoted during their show carreers from the time they are calves until their show carreer is over.
For me to use a bull he must be structurally correct from the ground up and sire calves that are also correct. They must also suit me from a phenotypical standpoint and they must have a strong maternal base to them as well as actual performance. There are several Red Angus bulls out there that have been highly promoted, and had successful show carreers that I will not use for one reason or another. Are all of my choices successful? NO, I've had my share of train wrecks for sure. I think that even in the purebred business too many people have a mongrelized herd using the bull of the month on a few cows and then keeping a handfull of heifers out of those matings. IMHO the most important tool that we have is to establish cow families and avoid the flavor of the month club. At that point you can use a new bull in your herd and get a true evaluation of him. RCR

 

[tcf]

A picture is great to go off of and for Club Calves I would have to say the proof is in the progeny. Popular genetics are what they are but finding that consistent bull that sires the kind you can sell is the end goal.

From a purebred side under other I would list Pedigree/EPD's and Conformation/Mother. Numbers are great but a polished turd is still just that and lining up bloodlines can be extremely advantageous. It does not mater to me if the bull has won a whole whack of shows, if I like him and feel confident and have seen his mother/ picture of his mother usually I am very interested in semen. Its like my grandfather always said, when you pick up a date always look at the mother, if it ain't there, it ain't there.