How to AI?

[oakie]

I wouldn't price a thing until I knew it had a heartbeat. Dead serious on the Dirty bulls, if you don't have some big pelviced cows don't mess with it. Dead calves/cows aren't worth a dime. Have the vet measure them and see what he thinks. I think alot of people who use heatwave and other bulls use them as ET's and put them in cows that can handle the big birth weight.

 

[kfacres]

Guess what? My dad said that I could AI! Today we had a vet out to see who was pregnant.  All but two. One is a cow that we showed in 4H a couple years ago. My plan is to maybe AI her in June/July for a spring calf..... but I want to sell the calf.  I want to sell it for at least  $1800 to $2000. I would use the money to buy a nice steer for myself.   But will she give a calf that good? Her first calf was a bull calf who is pretty thick for being born in August.. she also had him without any assistance. So any advice on bulls? Ones with a low bw/CE and be TH and PHAC free? Or does that not matter?? I will post a pic of the cow I"m thinking on AI-ing!

EPD's are meaningless on composite club calf bulls.  Any particular bull will throw birthweights ranging from 60-160 at any time, on dang neared any cow.  They are a crossed up, composite, mixed matched set of genetics.  You will get more throw aways, than keepers- likely in the ration of 2:1. 

That price range, will be tough for you to sell a calf for- especially your first calf- unless it's a black steer that you sell as a fat, or a heifer calf that you sell as a bred.  It will be tougher for you to buy a show heifer in that price range, unless you have someone to take you under their wing- who gives a care about the youth. 

The next thing you need to realize, is time of year is very important for show calf production, especially the club calf deal.  We live in the midwest where people want spring borns, yet we calve almost everything in the fall- doesn't do much good trying to sell fall born show steers around here, unless you have a good connection to TX or OK.  Also works visa-versa.

Just some words of advice:  you have alot of reading to do on here, about every stage of show calf production before you're ready to jump in heads over heals...  especially if you want to prove that what's your idea is a good one.  It's taken me my whole life to get the elders to believe in what I'm saying is better than same ole same ole...

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

I'm going to agree with BS on this. Do your homework before you go sticking clubby up your cow. If it misses, the calf is going be sorry. Probably worse than your natural bred cows. There is no easier way for your dad to decide that AI is not for him, or you, is for that first calf to be sorry. Find a good, proven purebred bull  (with Dad's input. He may not know flip about selecting bulls, but he's going to enjoy helping you pick one out. Just don't let him see the ones you don't like. Find 3-5 you do like and let him evaluate them with you) and breed that cow up for a calf that's going to outperform and outlook your natural calves. I suggest you have someone do your AI work and get them to breed her with sexed heifer semen. You are going to be a whole lot better off breeding that cow to a good  PB simmy bull(just an example), having a good registerable heifer calf that comes easy and grows, showing that heifer rather than trying to sell her and buy a different one, and improving your herd once she's finished showing. Your dad will see that the AI did pay off and will be a lot happier to do it again next year.

With a few years under you belt, you will know more about clubby bulls, where you are going to be able to sell steers, and how your cows are breeding. Then, you can select the right cow, the right bull, and come up with  that awesome calf you are after. You can do it <party>; just set yourself up for success and wait for the right time.

 

[kfacres]

IMO, I think you'd be just as well off breeding the cows you have right now to quality Sim, Maine, or Angus bulls-- and keeping back heifer calves to build off of, than wasting your money on a crossed up crippled show heifer for raising club calves.  And you'll have more fun doing it.. <rock>

I know of an outfit, about 45 min away that's one of the upper end club calf producers in the country.  They have a sale every year, that's a success.  His father is a vet, and does the local auction mart...  There was a time period of about 5 years that they bought every sound, breedable female that went through there- crazy, one eyed, you name it every color, kind, style...  Cheapest way to take your cow numbers from 100-1500 in that time period.  Those cows were all mated to a Meyer 734 son mainly, but a smaller % were mated angus and other Meyer sons.  Anyways long story short, I'm betting most of those cows took a rerun trip to the sale barn, but their daughters stayed-- but I'll guarantee that if your families cowherd is breedable and alive-- they're better than a percentage of the ones this outfit built a club calf breeding program around. 

 

[hntwhitetail]

I'd go some simmi-maine-angus dams and breed them to anything when you are done.  I wouldn't go crazy w/ using power steer bull to produce heifers if you are wanting to sell and market their calves in the future.... having a storng simmi-maine-angus background can help predict calving difficulties or ease of calving in the future.

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Alright thanks for all of the advice! I will take heed to them!! I've asked my dad and he said that he kind of wants to AI with a Hereford bull to get a baldie? I thought maybe on our heifer born the first week of April 2011... but I think she may be too young to AI this coming June and July.  I thought about using Cyrus he  has CE of -2.17 and .17 is that good? Other cow I want to AI is very tame and I want to AI her this coming June/July for a spring calf.  If I can AI both I want to sell one.  I want to shoot for 1500? Is that too high? I want the money to use on matching my dad with potentially 3000 to buy a really good steer with. (I like showing steers best) The other calf born from AI we could keep.  I want to AI the cow with a Maine since she is angus and a little Simmy.  She's a pretty good size cow not too small but not huge either. She had her first calf without any assistance. He was a bull who was pretty good size. He was also pretty thick as well. Yesterday I researched some Maine bulls and thought about Burn Notice/Smokin Joe/ or Montego bay.  I want your guys' advice on bulls, then I would look up their calves to see.  Low birthweight is mandatory and quality would be nice! Later today I might try to get some pics of the cow and heifer.

 

[kfacres]

much better train of thought...

 

[ChristaCheatham]

much better train of thought...
Alright so is Montego Bay the one I want?? I like him probably the best bc of his low BW's! If I'm shoosing him which one woulod you AI him too? The heifer or cow? And what about Cyrus do you know anything about him??? I liked him because he was very soggy looking and he looked like the real thing... but I'm having trouble finding calves out of him.

 

[kfacres]

I know nothing about your cows, and have never used either bull.  I can say that I was just recently exposed to H/T Crossfire, an oustanding prospect for me too look at in the future...  I have plans to purchase a Herf this year sometime, if I can find one affordable, and I can find the funds to purchase her with.  I think they are cool, and have had my eye on them for sometime now.

The most caution I can throw your way, is stray away from any bulls that are known carriers of lethal genetic defects- it will make your life much easier down the road.

 

[oakie]

Much better game plan with the low bw bulls. Why don't you breed one for your own steer? You'll pocket every dime, minus feed, and get your name out. I would try a simmental baldie, or something like Grizzly, but there are tons of bulls out there to pick from, just try and stay away from dirty bulls when you are building your base cows. If they are carriers it will limit you in the long run.

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Alright well I'm narrowing it down to Montego Bay and Grizzly. Might breed Grizzly to the angus/simmy cow and Montego Bay to the heifer. Any thoughts? Will keep looking at calves. DO you think Montego Bay is heifer safe???

 

[kfacres]

Alright well I'm narrowing it down to Montego Bay and Grizzly. Might breed Grizzly to the angus/simmy cow and Montego Bay to the heifer. Any thoughts? Will keep looking at calves. DO you think Montego Bay is heifer safe???

Have you done more research?  One person throws a name out there, and bam that's the bull you're going to use.  I think you should go here.  http://cattlevisions.com/ and see what's all available.  Either that, or post some pictures of the animals you're planning on breeding to get some input.  If I were you, I'd check out the Sim, Maine, Herf, maybe Chi categories to begin your search.

To give you an idea of some of what some of us go through when selecting a bull to use AI.  I've been searching for over a month, approaching 2- to find a double clean Shorthorn bull to use on some carrier cows (backed myself into a corner).  I've got a desired pedigree in mind of what I'd like to use, and some criteria on what I do not want in prospective bulls.  I am doing this search, to breed cows in 10 months- as they are currently bred for the year, and are fall calvers...  This might be a bit extreme-- but I'm betting I'm not the only one who asks around, and does tons of research before buying semen and sticking it in cows...

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Sorry Cut the BS I did not realize how much work went into picking a sire. I liked Grizzly bc he was CE on angus/simmy/chi not clubby heifers and cows which is what I have... and I looked up calves and almost everyone approved (86%) and he's a baldie... I will keep looking at sires but I really do like Montego and Grizzly. Any thoughts help!

 

[oakie]

I suggested grizzly because of the baldie coloring, I have heard three things on grizzly; The calves are too small and aren't vigorous to grow, The calves are too big for heifers and just turn out plain; the calves come out small, are vigorous and are amazing. So you can take what you want out of that. I bred a g13 structure heifer to him and may have a calf this year. I tried "In Dew Time" on all of my pb angus cows this year to make more maternal heifers that would be half bloods so that I can breed that group to some maine bulls, depending on how big they are. Personally I like the simmental crosses, they seem to make pretty cocky calves no matter what you breed them too.  That cattlevisions.com site is a great resource. Best of luck, post a photo of your cows and lets see what people think, it's hard to conclude anything with nothing to look at.

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Thanks Oakie for the advice! I have pics downloaded on my computer, so what is the webiste for resizing them? I've done more research and Smokin Joe seems to be a heifer bull.  Almost all semen distributors say that. So one I post pics, that will help even more. Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it!!

 

[ChristaCheatham]

OK here are pics of the heifer and cow.  The heifer is a 75% simmental with some angus.  She was born in April of 2011. We will be showing her in our fair.  The cow is mainly angus with a little chi.  She had her fisrt calf unassisted in August.  Both are sound and cover their tracks well.

 

[oakie]

ok, the best way to improve your cattle is to be able to fault them. From the photos, the heifer looks to be straight in her back end and needs some more depth of rib. If she was my heifer I would breed her to G13 structure and not think twice about it. My second pick would be boyds pound maker, http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus.asp?CodTouro=29AN1646. He is my second pick because I have never used him and have only heard good things through other people. The reason I would go back to angus, this is my opinion, is that both of those bulls should add some depth of rib, thickness and maybe give her some more flex to her legs. Maybe. Structures calves have been slow to grow in my cows but do pretty good as mothers and two year olds.  I would not breed that heifer to anything maine, alot of maines do not have flex and need cows with a little extra to make up for their lack of it.  She looks like she could get tall, so I would avoid anything simmental.

The cow, to me is an honest angus cow. I would breed her to a simmental bull to fancy her up, add some more muscle, and perhaps a little more frame. I would breed that calf back angus, stouten it up, and that calf simmental, and it should be ready to breed to maines, in theory.  I used In dew time this year, I haven't had any calves on the ground yet but from what I have heard I think he would work. I don't follow the simmental world as I should so I don't know alot of others but I have heard some good things about him. Here is one that might work, but I haven't researched him, so you will have to if you are interested, hoosier http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmental.asp?CodTouro=29SM0412, another one that might work (you need to research this one too) http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmental.asp?CodTouro=29SM0384

All of that said, I wouldn't use grizzly on either of them, he would probably work, but he doesn't have what these cows need. I breed safe, so someone who is more of a risk taker than I am will probably have some better information.

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Alright so you would stay away from Maines? That's exactly what I wanted to hear. In AI these cows, I want their calves to be of better quality than the ones that we get from a renting bull. I will do more research and not look at maines. Do you think an Angus bull might give some show quality calves?

 

[oakie]

Dont worry about show quality until you have corrected those faults. You are just aiming for the best cow that you can make and once you get there you can start breeding for show steers. If you jump right into maines you are going to lose years. Go to our webpage, look at "red" and then follow the lineage. Red is a p.o.s. show cow . But she has the biggest calves every year, which works for our operation. We bred her to simmental, got betty (who produced an awesome angus heifer this year), bred her structure and now have a really cool cow that I can breed to anything I want, she's clean so I'm not limited. Red was also a twin, bottle calf and is about 16 with every single tooth attached so I can't harp on her too bad. She had a pretty cool dirty harry calf, one year, but I was just experimenting and got lucky. I look at it as this, the show world is sketchy, the trends change, but there will always be a demand for beef, so I want my cows to be able to produce pounds and good show calves but in case one fails I need a back up plan, and buyers dont want colored calves they want pens of black or red.

 

[ChristaCheatham]

Alright thanks Oakie! I will take to your advice. I just want to get good quality calves in order to show my dad that AI does work. I did some research on G13 Structure... but some said he wasn't heifer safe? Or a sure bet on getting a low bw and CE calf. Will be doing more research.