Inbreeding question for knabe, or anyone else who's used an inbreeding calculato

[kfacres]

Question... 

Had a program run an inbreeding calculator.. and do not understand the results..

Have a bunch of extremely linebred individuals, but they show a very, very low inbreeding co-eff...

THe pedigrees mostly are sired by A sire-- who is sired by an outcross, linebred sire B in his own right.. However, sire A's mother is just a typical female- sired by sire T. It shows sire A as being 0.000 in-b.

The Dam's.. Dam A is sired by a grandson of sire T, and dammed by a 1/2 sister to his 1/2 sister


here.. better viewing

                    2143- (Outcross to the program, yet inbred in own right) shows .063 inbc
              0626
                    0401- Sired by sire T- dammed by a father/ daughter result.  Shows 0.00 inbc.. but the father/ daughter dam shows .250
animal x- shows .001 inbc
                    0259- sired by outcross, but dammed by a daughter of Sire T
              0401- shows .072 inbc
                    0039- sired by sire T

This animal has 3 shots of sire T in 4 generations.. yet only .001 inbc.

further back comes more linebred animals.. but it's distant. 



next pedigree.. letters/ numbers are carried over below on same animals.
                            0626 (above)
              0931- .001 3/4 brother to animal x as shown above
                            0414- sired by sire T
animal xy. (.125 inbc)
                            0626 (above)
            0756-
                          0377 (.250 inbc) result of son/ mother mating

email me..

[email protected] 

just don't get it, with the small numbers, yet linebred pedigrees.

 

[knabe]

make sure you don't have any spelling, capital letter, space errors as they will be assumed to be a different animal by some programs.

the numbers will be low.

after going over calculations for inbreeding, i am no longer worried about it.  go back and look at the herefords out of anxiety 4th.  no one today will probably breed the way he was bred.  even he was tightly bred.  order the book principles of linebreeding.

did you try this page?

http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=en

 

[kfacres]

I did not try that page, but the numbers are the same, as the program automatically fills in the numbers/ names as I go.. to ensure that they are the same individuals as parents..

How about this one, I just found

7/8 brother, mated to 7/8 sister... inbc .133..  

Using your site.. This is what I got from the very basic 7/8ths bro/ sis mating.
Coefficient for XXXX

Inbreeding: 0.16796875 (16.796875%)
AVK (ancestor loss coefficient): 93.548387096774%
The computation has been done for 5 generations


Inbreeding contribution by acenstor
POWER PACK 0.125 (12.5%)
TURBO 0.03125 (3.125%)
SPITTER 0.01171875 (1.171875%)

that site, stats that the one should be .16... whereas the program that I have been using, tells me .13.. with a much more accurate pedigree?

Would length, and accuracy of pedgree matter? 

I had a father/ daughter mating.. that came back to me being .25 inbc

 

[knabe]

here's another page.

http://www.braquedubourbonnais.info/en/inbreeding-calculation.htm

 

[aj]

I am calving out some half sister- half brother matings now(Durham Red deal). What would this show? How about a bull on a full brothers daughter? My walking bulls(Canadan term I've always wanted to use) will be 2 full brothers and their daddy. Would this be a linebreeding program being its a composite deal?

 

[aj]

This is cool. In theory couldn't you linebreed halfbloods and make them more linebred and more predictable than a hanky spanky bull of the month club purebred herd. Dypsy doodle...dipsty tipsy me. ;D

 

[DRB]

make sure you don't have any spelling, capital letter, space errors as they will be assumed to be a different animal by some programs.

the numbers will be low.

after going over calculations for inbreeding, i am no longer worried about it.  go back and look at the herefords out of anxiety 4th.  no one today will probably breed the way he was bred.  even he was tightly bred.  order the book principles of linebreeding.

did you try this page?

http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=en

Hi Knabe,
Could you give more details on the "principles of linebreeding" book, author etc?  Can't seem to find it in google searches or on Amazon - I presume it's an old one?
Thanks!

 

[knabe]

you don't linebreed halfbloods.  you linebreed lines (individuals).

 

[knabe]

Hi Knabe,
Could you give more details on the "principles of linebreeding" book, author etc?  Can't seem to find it in google searches or on Amazon - I presume it's an old one?
Thanks!

jim lents is the author.  you need to contact him.

here's his email.

[email protected]

i think he charges 35-40 bucks.

half of it is about line breeding of the tribes of israel, which i gotta say is somewhat interesting as jews have some defects, but arab populations have a lot more throughout the world, in fact the highest rate of birth defects as they customarily have 30-60% first cousin matings and probably didn't or don't weed out defect carriers like the jews may have done all those years ago when they started with 12.

it's why one has to cull heavily and a mating isn't good just because it's linebred.

 

[kfacres]

you don't linebreed halfbloods.  you linebreed lines (individuals).

taking 2 linebred lines and breeding them together, would be the max amount of hybrid vigor, basically... thinking in this term...  the inbreeding calculator would be correct, there wouldn't be any inbreeding if they are different breeds... 

but are they not still extremley linebred??? 

 

[aj]

There is no doubt in my mind that if I linebred a line of half-bloods(Red Angus-Shorthorn) over 5 generations.....and I concentrated on 4 traits.......I would make these cattle very predictable......and they would generate hybrid vigor......on most breeds. I will not argue to the death about the value of a f-1 composite bull.....UNLESS both sides had strict selection pressure for the same traits over say 5 generations. In my opinion its all about selection. Setting up paramiters. Not trying to be all things to all people. There are acres and acres of bulls out there for sale. I personally like the outfits that pound and pound and ai and hammer and select and cull then hammer some more and concentrate on say 4 traits. I will admitt that if you linebreed a line of half-bloods for 5 generations you essentially have a newly developed breed.......so why do it? I just think it's better than a herky jerky bull o the year selection process of fire and ice and square over the hip.....and hair and hair and how do they look when they are aged and etc.jmo

 

[Telos]

I never pay much attention to those inbreeding coefficiants unless it's done the old fashion way. Guestatmation. Most cattle lines are so crossed up with different breeds within their registered breed that it's almost impossible to come up with a number that has any value. JMO.

I like to go back at least several generations even up to 6 or 10 and count the same sire or dam and add them up. It's not really a science but you can get a good idea of what you are doing.  I had a cow that went back to Cunia, twenty-four times within Eight to ten generations.

 

[kfacres]

I never pay much attention to those inbreeding coefficiants unless it's done the old fashion way. Guestatmation. Most cattle lines are so crossed up with different breeds within their registered breed that it's almost impossible to come up with a number that has any value. JMO.

I like to go back at least several generations even up to 6 or 10 and count the same sire or dam and add them up. It's not really a science but you can get a good idea of what you are doing.  I had a cow that went back to Cunia, twenty-four times within Eight to ten generations.

Yes, I agree with you.. but I am not talking about a current day, mangled up cattle pedigrees.. I am talking about a breeding program that has all homebred individuals from back to the 60s (my records anyways).  Never purchased a female since 20's, only sires.  Some of the pedigrees who show none- to very little inbreeding %.. have 12 shots of one sire within 5-6 generations.

 

[Okotoks]

I never pay much attention to those inbreeding coefficiants unless it's done the old fashion way. Guestatmation. Most cattle lines are so crossed up with different breeds within their registered breed that it's almost impossible to come up with a number that has any value. JMO.

I like to go back at least several generations even up to 6 or 10 and count the same sire or dam and add them up. It's not really a science but you can get a good idea of what you are doing.  I had a cow that went back to Cunia, twenty-four times within Eight to ten generations.

Yes, I agree with you.. but I am not talking about a current day, mangled up cattle pedigrees.. I am talking about a breeding program that has all homebred individuals from back to the 60s (my records anyways).  Never purchased a female since 20's, only sires.  Some of the pedigrees who show none- to very little inbreeding %.. have 12 shots of one sire within 5-6 generations.

I used to wonder about that myself but when you calculate it you have 64 animals in the 6th generation contributing to the makeup of animal. So if all 12 of the one sire were in the 6th it would be  0.185 or 18.5% influence. As soon as the animals start showing up in the 5th, 6th,7th geneation their influence drops right off. By the 8th generation an animal has only 0.40% influence. 1/256

 

[kfacres]

I never pay much attention to those inbreeding coefficiants unless it's done the old fashion way. Guestatmation. Most cattle lines are so crossed up with different breeds within their registered breed that it's almost impossible to come up with a number that has any value. JMO.

I like to go back at least several generations even up to 6 or 10 and count the same sire or dam and add them up. It's not really a science but you can get a good idea of what you are doing.  I had a cow that went back to Cunia, twenty-four times within Eight to ten generations.

Yes, I agree with you.. but I am not talking about a current day, mangled up cattle pedigrees.. I am talking about a breeding program that has all homebred individuals from back to the 60s (my records anyways).  Never purchased a female since 20's, only sires.  Some of the pedigrees who show none- to very little inbreeding %.. have 12 shots of one sire within 5-6 generations.

I used to wonder about that myself but when you calculate it you have 64 animals in the 6th generation contributing to the makeup of animal. So if all 12 of the one sire were in the 6th it would be  0.185 or 18.5% influence. As soon as the animals start showing up in the 5th, 6th,7th geneation their influence drops right off. By the 8th generation an animal has only 0.40% influence. 1/256

very valid point...  the number's of influences really decline with every generation..

 

[Telos]

Distribution of related family lines within a pedigree, which presently cannot be calculated, has some cause and effect on outcome.

 

[Joe Boy]

I had an accidental breeding of a bull back to his dam.  The calf was  a heifer and more sound than her sire or dam.  The kicker is the Dam was bred to the 1/2 brother of her sire.  The genetics is loaded, but I will never breed her to a relative on either side if I can help it.

 

[kfacres]

I had an accidental breeding of a bull back to his dam.  The calf was  a heifer and more sound than her sire or dam.  The kicker is the Dam was bred to the 1/2 brother of her sire.  The genetics is loaded, but I will never breed her to a relative on either side if I can help it.

here is a crazy linebred pedigree, for viewing... I stumbled across it the other day..  The owners of this buck are in our 4H club back home, but I don't know how he has done any good for them or anything.  I haven't seen, or talked to them in years.  Inbreeding calculator says 81% Walmart blood, and I forget the % of his sire, since there was one more shot of him in there...  To bad I dislike Texels.. and I guess that when you are in a breed as small as they are.. then when you do find a 'true' breeding buck... you have to use hiim forever due to not being able to find another to replace him.  Guess it holds true for most "small" breeds.

http://www.countrylovin.com/Richardson/files/Stonewall.pdf

 

[knabe]

they look like a crossbred operation.  don't see anything wrong with fixing an individual, or a few if you look at their other pedigrees.

 

[kfacres]

they look like a crossbred operation.  don't see anything wrong with fixing an individual, or a few if you look at their other pedigrees.

They (Richardsons) started out as a crossbreeding program, and have tried to build up to purebred status- from what I can remember..  

I think the biggest setback to genetic diversity is a small gene pool, and without crossbreeding to breed up, or importing semen to AI... There isn't any other bloodlines out there (the breed) to use.  

The other pedigrees seemed to be lined around some of the same stuff as the Stonewall/ Walmart buck..  My interest with the Stonewall buck was his repeated father, daughter, coupled with sibling matings within 4 generations; whereas in the other bucks' pedigrees the common ansestors are 4-5 generations away.  .