Inbreeding question for knabe, or anyone else who's used an inbreeding calculato

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knabe

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the truth said:
I think the biggest setback to genetic diversity is a small gene pool, and without crossbreeding to breed up, or importing semen to AI... There isn't any other bloodlines out there (the breed) to use.    

if you have what you want, what do you need diversity for other than the immune system?  the whole idea behind linebreeding is to have a small gene pool, not keep messing it up by doing the very opposite thing one did to get there.  the whole key is to have something after you are there to close the herd.
 

kfacres

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The average person does not realize this...  

If I remember correctly, only less than 5% of the population-- is considered the elites- the ‘true’ breeders...  In a small breed, this may only be 2 or 3 operations.  These are the only people, who are going to realize what line breeding and consistency is, does, and its advantages.  And then they use it to their advantage to stay atop their breed.  Just as a side note-- these breeders have to remain on top, and sometimes they don't always use the most "honest" methods of doing so, especially considering the show ring and its ethics...  These are the population who is interested into looking into the future and being there when the demand arises...  These people sell very few animals to the marketplace.  Almost all of their progeny gets sold into purebred operations for elite dollar amounts- more so than not.  The 'elites', for the most part- buy from themselves or from nobody at all

The rest of the pool of a breed is multipliers, and commercial people.  

About 25% (to 50%, depending on size of the breed) of the rest of the breed- is multipliers-- These people might line breed some, on a great one that get, but for the most part they are going to be traveling and purchasing what they consider the best of what their money can afford.  These people likely will line breed by purchasing sires repeatedly from the same operation, or at least similar genetics... but for the most part- they aren't reading into the genetic history of their purchases... they are just focusing on phenotype, and maybe the parentage that they feel is "elite", or the breeder that "they" came from.  I would say that these people are living in the present.  They breed what is current, what is winning, and what is generating a profit RIGHT NOW.  These operations for the most part sell to the commercial segments of the breed, for more modest prices, and purchase from the elites (above).  Every once in a while, an elite operation buys from these customers, and some of this bracket purchase from here as well.  For the most part, this is just the average producer who "thinks" they might be able to compete with the "big boys" down the road and build up to the level they feel is ideal- in addition, this segment makes up the largest percentage of the show ring.

So what does that leave the rest of the 70% (or as low as 45% in smaller or "more uncommon/ commercially unacceptable" breeds) of the breed percentile?  They try to maximize hybrid vigor effect FIRST and FOREMOST.  Now, this may either be commercial guys looking to crossbreed, commercial folks looking to add to the bottom dollar by remaining purebred, or again, like mentioned above…  They might be focused on building a program to compete with the “big boys” (or make a good ‘one’ for their grandkid to show at the county fair), but more than likely they just want to make a profit.  These people, for the most part- are stuck living in the "present" past.  They know what worked yesterday, and what it takes to generate a profit and remain afloat.  The upper end of this group may purchase from the 'elites', but for the most part they feel that the 'elite' stock is "overpriced", and would rather purchase from the above mentioned group of the multipliers.  This group sells almost everything directly to slaughter or the feedlot.  

Now, with this being said, it takes all 3 categories of people and producers to properly function as a breed.  Each category focuses, and feeds off the other- as well as supporting them as well.  
I guess the only question that really needs to be asked... is what category do you, and I fall into?  
 

kfacres

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knabe said:
DRB said:
Hi Knabe,
Could you give more details on the "principles of linebreeding" book, author etc?  Can't seem to find it in google searches or on Amazon - I presume it's an old one?
Thanks!

jim lents is the author.  you need to contact him.

here's his email.

[email protected]

i think he charges 35-40 bucks.

half of it is about line breeding of the tribes of israel, which i gotta say is somewhat interesting as jews have some defects, but arab populations have a lot more throughout the world, in fact the highest rate of birth defects as they customarily have 30-60% first cousin matings and probably didn't or don't weed out defect carriers like the jews may have done all those years ago when they started with 12.

it's why one has to cull heavily and a mating isn't good just because it's linebred.

TRIED... NO RESPONSE.. BETTER IDEA?
 

DRB

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the truth said:
knabe said:
DRB said:
Hi Knabe,
Could you give more details on the "principles of linebreeding" book, author etc?  Can't seem to find it in google searches or on Amazon - I presume it's an old one?
Thanks!

jim lents is the author.  you need to contact him.

here's his email.

[email protected]

i think he charges 35-40 bucks.

half of it is about line breeding of the tribes of israel, which i gotta say is somewhat interesting as jews have some defects, but arab populations have a lot more throughout the world, in fact the highest rate of birth defects as they customarily have 30-60% first cousin matings and probably didn't or don't weed out defect carriers like the jews may have done all those years ago when they started with 12.

it's why one has to cull heavily and a mating isn't good just because it's linebred.

TRIED... NO RESPONSE.. BETTER IDEA?

Truth,
Did you mean you did NOT get a response from Jim Lents?  I sent him an email last week, and he responded, book is still $40USD for international... and is available (I think $35 USD for shipment within USA).
( [email protected] ) . He might be busy, since I know he has had various speaking engagements around the US.  You could try emailing again I suppose or you could always just try sending him a cheque/money order.

His address is:
Jim Lents
25398 SW Coombs Road
Indiahoma, OK 73552








 

kfacres

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DRB said:
the truth said:
knabe said:
DRB said:
Hi Knabe,
Could you give more details on the "principles of linebreeding" book, author etc?  Can't seem to find it in google searches or on Amazon - I presume it's an old one?
Thanks!

jim lents is the author.  you need to contact him.

here's his email.

[email protected]

i think he charges 35-40 bucks.

half of it is about line breeding of the tribes of israel, which i gotta say is somewhat interesting as jews have some defects, but arab populations have a lot more throughout the world, in fact the highest rate of birth defects as they customarily have 30-60% first cousin matings and probably didn't or don't weed out defect carriers like the jews may have done all those years ago when they started with 12.

it's why one has to cull heavily and a mating isn't good just because it's linebred.

TRIED... NO RESPONSE.. BETTER IDEA?

Truth,
Did you mean you did NOT get a response from Jim Lents?  I sent him an email last week, and he responded, book is still $40USD for international... and is available (I think $35 USD for shipment within USA).
( [email protected] ) . He might be busy, since I know he has had various speaking engagements around the US.  You could try emailing again I suppose or you could always just try sending him a cheque/money order.

His address is:
Jim Lents
25398 SW Coombs Road
Indiahoma, OK 73552

yes that is correct.. I tried emailing him the exact day that knabe posted the email llink, but from my hotmail address. 

I tried again today, from my gov email address.  Maybe this one will work, as most email's from hotmail accounts get junked. 
 

mark tenenbaum

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Not being a scientific person I can only throw out a couple of things. According to various people and organizations( I could access)-the most linebred and oldest domestic breed of PUREBRED  cattle cattle in existance (almost 2 hundred years) are the Irish Shorthorns. Once they got hereIN THE US, in 1971:-Deerpark Leader13 was line bred almost indefinitely by Robert Alden Et-Al.I went to Ireland  in 1989-and the main people: -Edward Quane -(Deerpark), Kevin Kulhane (the Shannon Cattle) ,JOHN  Mcnally-Highfield, Paddy O Callihan (everybodys banker) and alot of others said at that point-(almost 190 years into the importation of original Shorthorns from the (MONARCHS IN ENGLAND) that an outcross was sorely needed. Linebreeding meets reversals and a degeneration at a certain point-dependent upon the species. One only needs to look at some of the pics (posted I think by Knabe) of Maines from the 1900s till the late 20s-to see how incredibly correct and smoothe made they were compared to the trainwreck pictures you see of late model fullbloods from France.As far as HUMAN linebreeding-I come from the Northern tip of Appalacia-Hillbilly Land-and have seen the defects (like Deliverance) first hand.When I was mining coal,I went through Gilbert WVA-land of the Irish sideof my FAMBLY-pretty bleak,them was some ugly folks to be my kin. O0
 

kfacres

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speaking of linebreeding humans... ever see that movie w/ stone cole steve austion, forgot the name...  but with those people and the toxic water.. and inbred cannibals?  Now that's F'd up. 
 

Okotoks

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knabe said:
here's some linebreeding. 

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C592421252025

i really don't see anyone topping this by too much as far as linebreeding goes in cattle anytime soon.

i pretty sure the anxiety line never amounted to much.
Here's a linebred Shorthorn we plan on using this year. Calving ease and good carcass results back in the day.Last calf we had from this bull was a cow that went to Muridale, Diamond Secret Delight 5D

                                  HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                    MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                                  MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
  Sire: MANDALONG ROYAL AMBASSADOR (P) Roan M66/01023 
                                HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                  MERIWONG HAREBELLE (P) Roan F60/02057 
                                  MERIWONG ANNABELL (P) Red Little White F57/07386 

Animal: MANDALONG ROYAL FERRARI (P) Roan M71/01380 

                            HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                              MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
    Dam: MANDALONG PRINCESS (P) Red F62/02784 
                          GUNDIBRI MIST 7TH (P) Red M57/01683 
                  LONE PINE ROANY 1559TH (P) Roan F60/00402 
                            LONE PINE ROANY 1353RD (P) Red F57/11019 

 

kfacres

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Okotoks said:
knabe said:
here's some linebreeding. 

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C592421252025

i really don't see anyone topping this by too much as far as linebreeding goes in cattle anytime soon.

i pretty sure the anxiety line never amounted to much.
Here's a linebred Shorthorn we plan on using this year. Calving ease and good carcass results back in the day.Last calf we had from this bull was a cow that went to Muridale, Diamond Secret Delight 5D

                                   HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                     MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                                   MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
   Sire: MANDALONG ROYAL AMBASSADOR (P) Roan M66/01023 
                                 HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                   MERIWONG HAREBELLE (P) Roan F60/02057 
                                  MERIWONG ANNABELL (P) Red Little White F57/07386 

Animal: MANDALONG ROYAL FERRARI (P) Roan M71/01380 

                            HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                 MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                              MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
    Dam: MANDALONG PRINCESS (P) Red F62/02784 
                           GUNDIBRI MIST 7TH (P) Red M57/01683 
                  LONE PINE ROANY 1559TH (P) Roan F60/00402 
                            LONE PINE ROANY 1353RD (P) Red F57/11019 

So does he have anything other than a basic 1/2 brother/ sister mating? 
 

Okotoks

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the truth said:
Okotoks said:
knabe said:
here's some linebreeding. 

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C592421252025

i really don't see anyone topping this by too much as far as linebreeding goes in cattle anytime soon.

i pretty sure the anxiety line never amounted to much.
Here's a linebred Shorthorn we plan on using this year. Calving ease and good carcass results back in the day.Last calf we had from this bull was a cow that went to Muridale, Diamond Secret Delight 5D

                                   HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                     MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                                   MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
   Sire: MANDALONG ROYAL AMBASSADOR (P) Roan M66/01023 
                                 HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                   MERIWONG HAREBELLE (P) Roan F60/02057 
                                  MERIWONG ANNABELL (P) Red Little White F57/07386 

Animal: MANDALONG ROYAL FERRARI (P) Roan M71/01380 

                            HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                 MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                              MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
    Dam: MANDALONG PRINCESS (P) Red F62/02784 
                           GUNDIBRI MIST 7TH (P) Red M57/01683 
                  LONE PINE ROANY 1559TH (P) Roan F60/00402 
                            LONE PINE ROANY 1353RD (P) Red F57/11019 

So does he have anything other than a basic 1/2 brother/ sister mating? 
Actually the sire is the result of a half sibling mating as is the bull himself. So the main linebreeding is that Highbank Royal Duke is in the pedigree 3 times in the 3rd generation.
 

kfacres

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Okotoks said:
the truth said:
Okotoks said:
knabe said:
here's some linebreeding. 

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C592421252025

i really don't see anyone topping this by too much as far as linebreeding goes in cattle anytime soon.

i pretty sure the anxiety line never amounted to much.
Here's a linebred Shorthorn we plan on using this year. Calving ease and good carcass results back in the day.Last calf we had from this bull was a cow that went to Muridale, Diamond Secret Delight 5D

                                   HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                     MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                                   MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
   Sire: MANDALONG ROYAL AMBASSADOR (P) Roan M66/01023 
                                 HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                   MERIWONG HAREBELLE (P) Roan F60/02057 
                                  MERIWONG ANNABELL (P) Red Little White F57/07386 

Animal: MANDALONG ROYAL FERRARI (P) Roan M71/01380 

                            HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
                 MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
                              MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
    Dam: MANDALONG PRINCESS (P) Red F62/02784 
                           GUNDIBRI MIST 7TH (P) Red M57/01683 
                  LONE PINE ROANY 1559TH (P) Roan F60/00402 
                            LONE PINE ROANY 1353RD (P) Red F57/11019 

So does he have anything other than a basic 1/2 brother/ sister mating? 
Actually the sire is the result of a half sibling mating as is the bull himself. So the main linebreeding is that Highbank Royal Duke is in the pedigree 3 times in the 3rd generation.
now that's a little more like it...  linebreeding is sweet, the crazier, the cooler.
 
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