Interested in F1's

[GrowerShower32]

So we are considering making a few F1s. We have a commercial herd mainly Angus influence with very light touch of brangus and Limousin. We are considering breeding a few cows to some charolais and simmental bulls. We are hesitant on the heifers cause we aren't sure they would be safe for a first time Heifer. When looking at the birth weight epds on the simmys and charolais what nbers should we look for that would be safe for Angus cows and heifers alike?

 

[Doc]

Cross them on some Shorthorns for some good blue roans. These are 3 of the ones I have. You won't be disappointed.

 

[GrowerShower32]

We have thought about the shorthorns but never had any experience with them, just always done the black hide thats why we thought simmental and love the growth of the charolais. But would definitely keep the shorthorns in mind.

Just wondering for any of the three breeds(charolais, simmys, and now shorthorns) what kind of birth rods should we look for when crossing them on Angus commercial cows and heifers to stay in safe birth weights?

 

[Simmgal]

Cross them on some Shorthorns for some good blue roans. These are 3 of the ones I have. You won't be disappointed.

Great looking set of cattle! I love the way blue roans look! I've always wanted a few!

Maybe I'm a bit biased, but it's hard to beat a Simangus cross! That's what the majority of our herd (and the other herds around us, for that matter) is. There are plenty of Sim bulls out there today that CE and BW aren't an issue, especially compared to some of the angus bulls that breeders are using these days. "Cow-killing" Sim bulls are mostly a thing of the past now. I have a few Char x animals and they are good producers as well. I haven't used any of the new big name Char bulls in a while, so you'd have to ask someone else about them! I do know that our gray cattle sell as well as the black ones around here. The Simmental and Angus breeds really seem to compliment each other well, in my opinion. The Sim adds the power and growth while the Angus adds the softness and depth. A Sim will help with the characteristic narrow rear that a lot of Angus have.

As far as one single bull to use on heifers and cows alike, you'd have to go with a calving ease sire. I personally would pick a CE bull for the heifers and a more growth-oriented bull for the mature cows. There's no use to waste the CE and performance potential on mature cows. There are a few bulls out there that have a decent spread from BW to WW. I'm currently using CCR Wide Range, he's a 3/4 Sim himself, and a son, BCLR Wide Load. I've used Lock Down and W/C United here recently as well. I saw a few High Roller and TNT Tanker Angus crosses that met my standards for good cattle!  If you're looking to make replacements, MM numbers are something to keep in mind, as well as keeping growth at a reasonable level. The MWW EPD on the Sim side of things can be a helpful tool as well. There are always the old standbys that have made good F1 cows over the years, Shear Force, Legacy, etc. Those have a high calving ease EPD. Cut Above has also been known to make some good F1s. I could go on and on, so if you'd like more recommendations, let me know! Best of luck to you!  (thumbsup)

 

[GrowerShower32]

Thank you simmgal that real helpful to have some insight on the breed. We aren't gonna settle on just one bull across the board in our herd we are just looking and want to know what number to look for when looking at the rods of a simmental, charolais, and shorthorns cause I know each breed is different we just don't want to look at them like an Angus rod and end up with a 100lbs calf and have a mess on our hands

 

[uluru]

Doc those cows look great........Bob

 

[Simmgal]

Thank you simmgal that real helpful to have some insight on the breed. We aren't gonna settle on just one bull across the board in our herd we are just looking and want to know what number to look for when looking at the rods of a simmental, charolais, and shorthorns cause I know each breed is different we just don't want to look at them like an Angus rod and end up with a 100lbs calf and have a mess on our hands

Here's a link that might help!

https://www.angus.org/Nce/AcrossBreedEpdAdjFactors.aspx

 

[Mark H]

GrowerShower 32,
I have some questions to ask before I can make any recommendations for bulls to use:
Where are you located?
What is you average cow size? Heifer size at breeding?
Have you used any high performance bulls in the past?  Any Charolais or Simmental?
How much management do you put in at calving time?
What are your breeding goals? produce replacements? feeder steers? performance?
Any showring aspirations?
Do you want a uniformly black herd or will red, grey and buckskin calves work as well?
The biggest problem with getting a Charolais bull to work on Angus heifers is to get one that is easy calving enough from a commerical AI stud.  You may wish to consider using a calving ease Simmental bull or Simangus to get replacements.
I also like to use a bull where you would get marketing assistance for the calves if you buy semen from them In this regard LT, Effertz, DEbryckers, eatons etc can be a big advantage for you.
I look forward to your reply.

Mark

 

[GrowerShower32]

Mark H, our average cow size is 1100 to 1200lbs give or take. We are located in mid Georgia this is our first time stepping up our game but we are tired of run of the mill cows so want to put some performance into our herd. We haven't been worried at calving time cause the registered Angus bull we've had the past 2 years has a low birth sleep easy type weight. We are wanting to grow feeder/market type calves out of our cows and with the heifers go toward replacement/show animals - broody type cows. We have a Angus bull we are considering for the heifers already.

My question that I've been asking is when looking through websites like select sire, Origen, top sites etc etc when I look at Angus epds I know that the smaller the number the better suited for heifers. If I see an Angus with a birth EPD of 4.5 that he would not work on our heifers but I might could try him on a 4 to 5 year old cow if her frame was right. What I'm wondering is with the simmental and charolais breeds the epds run alittle different is a charolais with a birth EPD of 1.5 the equivalent of an Angus? Or what should I look for number wise on charolais an simmentals to know that the epds is right for an Angus cow and heifer for her second calf not first?

 

[Simmgal]

Mark H, our average cow size is 1100 to 1200lbs give or take. We are located in mid Georgia this is our first time stepping up our game but we are tired of run of the mill cows so want to put some performance into our herd. We haven't been worried at calving time cause the registered Angus bull we've had the past 2 years has a low birth sleep easy type weight. We are wanting to grow feeder/market type calves out of our cows and with the heifers go toward replacement/show animals - broody type cows. We have a Angus bull we are considering for the heifers already.

My question that I've been asking is when looking through websites like select sire, Origen, top sites etc etc when I look at Angus epds I know that the smaller the number the better suited for heifers. If I see an Angus with a birth EPD of 4.5 that he would not work on our heifers but I might could try him on a 4 to 5 year old cow if her frame was right. What I'm wondering is with the simmental and charolais breeds the epds run alittle different is a charolais with a birth EPD of 1.5 the equivalent of an Angus? Or what should I look for number wise on charolais an simmentals to know that the epds is right for an Angus cow and heifer for her second calf not first?

The link I posted for you shows the breed EPD adjustment factors. There is a chart on that link that shows what you need to add or subtract from other breed EPDs to make them equal Angus EPDs. It might take a little number crunching, but that will help to answer your question.

 

[Mark H]

First one word of usring about using the across breed EPD conversion tables:  No work has been do to validate this table from Clay Center and this adds the problems of comparing two different EPD models to the inherit problems that exist within the EPD models themselves. No one does validation or progeny testing to verify what the EPDs are are in fact accurate.  The American Simmental Association is thinking about doing progeny testing of bulls to in fact do this.  The Canadian charolais Association regrets stopping their progeny testing program for this reason as well.  Very small things like weighing procedures and the type of scale used vary from breed to breed and country to country and have huge impacts on the numbers produced.
Now on to the bulls to use. LT has a number of high performance and excellent maternal bulls that designed to work here.
LT Venture (Accelerated)
LT Sundance (Genex)
RBM Fargo
See them and their prices all under $ 25.00 at: http://www.ltranch.com/herdsires.html  Note they also have a feeder marketing program and given the importance of this breeder he likely could do something for you.

 

[Simmgal]

PM me if you have further questions about any of the Simmental bulls mentioned or EPDs.

 

[Mark H]

Information on the ASA program that atarted in 1997 to improve EPD accuracy: http://simmental.org/site/index.php/cmp
It would be nice to see the data collectd from  this program displayed separately we can better assess a bulls worth in a commercial setting.

 

[Mark H]

First let me say that EPDs were a big improvement over what we used previously to compare the gentic worth of cattle.  That sais they still can use improvement and comparing EPD models is frought with problems:  Here is an inside look at how the CCA and AICA methods of collecting data and scoring that data influence EPDs: Look at page 22 of the December 2016 Charolais Banner and read the article: https://issuu.com/pdrneepawa/docs/dec_2016_charolais_banner_web?e=2717029/41390073

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Here are a few F-1s-the second pic is one from Will on here-the others are from Lynette Jane-all are Shorthornx Angus-and I wish I had some of the other Lynette photos-THEY ARE BAR NONE-the best F 1 cattle Ive seen posted on this site.Docs blue roans are probably the showiest f-1s Ive seen-and they are out on grass-and  Sorry folks-Angus as a rule are not real show ring looking cattle-thats not a bad thing-just where they are at right now.Yea Yea-we know how functional etc-but look at some of these-they are BOTH.I got to visit Will in December and saw maybe one of the better i-80s to date that at least Ive seen-and she was a tank that was way bigger than her mother-unlike a lot of i 80s ive seen-she was solid black out of a Shorthorn cow. ASK OHLDE about the AngusxShort  cross-AND about the way these cattle perform when you mix them. O0

 

[fish94]

If this is a commercial herd I would breed um simmy or Hereford to get productive replacements, and to keep the black hide so you don't lose money through the yards.

 

[GrowerShower32]

Will hopefully get pictures of the bull we are looking at, by this weekend but I'm posting a picture of his papers and epds. He's about 18 months old and he's 3/4 Angus and 1/4 simmental

 

[Mark H]

A very conservative choice he is a calving ease bull.  Given that your herd is primary angus based you won't maximize hybrid vigor or performance in the calves.

 

[GrowerShower32]

We decided that we are going to start culling our older mama cows and start slow to get a stouter frame on our cattle by using this bull on our heifers to start fresh. Then after we get a few calf crops out of him go to a full simmental bull then possibly cross a few to a charolais.

 

[GrowerShower32]

We just don't want to get in over our heads and get in a mess with large calves.