Is not showing your own animal cheating?

[Clubcalfshowgirl]

Ok! I am a JR. and i show commercial calves. I had a breeder who bought a heifer and he showed her at one show and our FFA program at school took over after the first show. Ok so she came to our school and i decided that i wanted to show her so i asked my ag teacher and he said ya so i took over the care of this heifer she stayed at our school but it was up to me if i wanted her to have hair and how good i wanted her to look. But the owner paid for feed and i paid for entrys and i got class winnings and he got grand or reserve money. Well after a few months of her showing i decided to take her home, owner still paying for feed. Well as she was at my house i groomed,washed, feed, cleaned stalls. Would yall consider this cheating?? oh ya and at shows ME and MY ag teacher got out there and he clipped and then we started fitting, we had a team going on after the first 2 shows. I mean the owner didnt see this calf for 6 months atleast as i did ALL the work and showed and everything. Is this considered cheating as this calf didnt belong to me??? 

Heres a picture of the heifer that i'm talking about at this show she was grand champion heifer.As u can see in the 2nd picture everybody helps out if they didnt bring a calf or if they dont need to start fitting right then and there.

 

[NHR Shorthorns]

Well I guess all we can do now is hope for the best. Open show ,Junior show, Jackpot show there is too much money involved, once you get down to it everyone showing is doing nothing more than advertising a product. So, if were advertising a product then were all working for a business, wether it be a specific person, ranch and or breed. If were all in a business enviroment then it has to be cut-throat, and by that I mean win at all cost. Yes, its great we all want everyone to be honest here, but in my mind there is just too much money involved, which ultimatly leads to greed. So, to me the innocence
of the show ring is gone. Everybody is for sale is this what we want to teach these kids to win at all cost!!!

We have mainly dealed with the heifer aspect of the show ring, and this year if our first time getting into the steer side. There is a pretty show the first week of July. So i guess it came to me as a big surprise, when talking to a Texas parent that he said he was lucky he did not have to haul his daughters "wooly steers" as he called them to the show. Because the guy who apparently owns and cares for them, doesnt ask him to help or anything. Of course this happens alot in Texas and they have been blessed with success in the Majors steer rings. To me this is Crap, but on the other its their business and ive been a kind of a person that like to see no evil, and hear no evil, TELL NO EVIL. THAT MEANS DONT RAT

 

[Tx Black Steer]

So all you people that think its O.K. for these kids to not OWN these animals where do you draw the line?  I mean are they not breaking the rules?  Maybe they aren't?  Maybe there isn't a rule that says they have to own the animal.  I know I showed steers and we had to own and care for the animals ourself!  If there is where do you draw the line?  Breaking this rule is O.K.  but breaking this one isn't and who is the one who decides which rules to fallow?  Do you tell everyone which rules to fallow?

 

[OH Breeder]

I take this one pretty serious. I dont have any children. I depend on my neices adn nephews to show what we produce. ON the farm sign we are listed all though I write the checks etc. The kids provide the lab and manage the day to day operations. Most of the stock is registered in my name. I have provided all of them with steers and they do the work, keep any class winnings but at the sale they have to pay the banker first.
I don't see a problem with others showing your animals. In open shows many times it is what ever will give you an honest competative advantage. NOte I said honest. If it is a "so and so" and they are recognized why not use them to promote your stock.
WHere I do have a problem is when you provide several kids with animals and one or two kids do all the work. The slackers show up at the shows and that is it. That is not fair. To date this has only happened once.
My neices and nephews show alot of my breeding stock and they get to use them for 4-H and FFA projects. I don't know what I would do without them. I guess I just try and teach them a lesson about life and the real cost of doing business. We don't use professional fitters we went to clinics etc and do our own. Have to say the boys can fit with the best of them. It truly has been a family affair with my operation. I know they all aren't that way.

 

[red]

(welcome) Texas Black!

I think a junior should own their animal if they show it as part of a 4-H or FFA project.
I don't have a problem w/ them showing someone elses in open shows.
Does that make sense?

Red

 

[cherokee1]

Hey Clubcalfshowgirl, the heifer looks awsome and congratulations on the win.  It is obvious that you have done alot of work with this heifer.

I do not think you showing her is cheating.  What I hate is to watch Mom/Dad and fitter do EVERYTHING with the calf and the kid stands there and watches. I know of a family who has the dad do all the work and those kids get screamed at if they even try to help.  So who's calf and who's project is that?  The kid may hold the ownership papers, but obviously it is the dads project, he is a 40 + yr old FFA member.  It is sad.

So I guess I do not have a problem with ownership........To much.........Other than it does bother me in these fat steer shows that there is a guy I know of that is not married, has no kids and can not let go of these JR shows, so he recruits kids to show his steers in these JR shows, the kid (a diff. one every year) shows up in time to show the calf then hands the calf back off to this guy gets in their car and goes home.  I guess I have a problem with that.  For the brother showing the sisters heifer.....Who cares it is family.  For the older couple that Cowz talked about........ I think that is OK(I could pick it apart if I really think about it and probably decide it may not be ok) But sounds like they show at National shows not Jr.

Have a good one.

 

[red]

I think personally if I have a young person show for me again, I'll make sure they come out more & work w/ the calf more. It makes a BIG difference in how they show. I have no problem helping out someone but want to see effort also put in on their part. I just know how it is at home w/ us, I break the calves generally & they are more used to me. Hard for nephews to show them because the calves are used to my little strange ways. Do have some new niece in laws that are good showmen & seem to want to come out & practice. I love that!

Red

 

[DLD]

I really don't see why we're even discussing open shows here - there are no rules stating that the owner of record has to show or care for the animal. In many cases it's simply not viable for them to do so, in others they might just prefer to watch someone else show their cattle, or they might be trying to get someone who's a little more politically correct on the stick. In any case, it just doesn't matter - it's legal and commonplace for someone besides the owner to show.

I guess I'm a little like TX Black Steer, somewhat surprised at how many people who are such sticklers about other rules can be so relaxed about this one in the junior shows. I don't have a problem with helping out family, or even the neighbor kids, but where do you draw the line? If it's okay for me to keep my neices steer at my place, and her to come out regularly and take care of it, then how can it not be okay for Mr. Bigshot Breeder to keep a heifer (or ten) at his house for the neighbor kid(s), never mind that they live 100 miles away? Or for Mr. Super Steerjock to sell a kid steer, but keep it at his place and feed it "so it can stay in the cooler"?. There's really no way we can enforce any rules about money changing hands, but I really believe that the animals need to be in the care of the junior exhibitor for at least as long as the shows ownership rules require. And that only one junior exhibitor (or family, where allowed) should show that animal during that ownership period. As far as who actually shows it, I think it shouldn't even be a question that the owner of record has to show the animal except in case of sickness or family emergency or if they have more than one animal in the same class.

I'm also surprised that some places allow projects belonging to academically ineligible students to show and participate in premium sales. Here, that's expressly against the rules, and I think that's as it should be - it's a consequence of not keeping your grades up, or staying out of trouble. That's one of the life lessons we need to be teaching, in my opinion.

When we nominate steers here in OK, for awhile the forms asked for actual directions to the location where the steer would be kept 'til the show. I guess that there were some attempts made to check up on certain exhibitors, but strangely enough, their calves were gone to get their hooves trimmed alot...

 

[red]

I guess the original post was more aimed at adults & whether it's considered cheating if they have someone else show their animal.
I certainly don't think a junior should show someone elses as their 4-H/FFA project. I guess when I'm talking about a junior showing one of mine, I'm looking at a jackpot show or open show.
Agree 100% w/ you & TX Black that a junior shouldn't show someone elses as their own as a project.
We also have a lot of steers that are getting their hooves trimmed! Never seen the kids that the grandparents or other person's barn. Matter of fact you can usually tell at fair who actually takes care of their own calves by how scoops the poop!

Red

 

[chambero]

http://tx4-h.tamu.edu/mgtguide/MgtOverview/Ethics%20Policy.pdf

Above is the official ethics policy we have to follow in Texas for state steer validation.  It's pretty clear on the ownership issue - which is really more of an issue about the kids taking care of them.  I'm not sure if its in writing anymore, but we used to have a rule that your calf had to "reside" in the same county you lived in.  Cases of calves living in the fitters cooler halfway across the state clearly aren't "gray".  I think we can all agree on that.

The Texas Junior Livestock Association (under whose rules most of our prospect shows fall under) expressly forbid "loaning" our of steers and showing animals validated in someone else's name.  I really don't think we have much calf-switching going on after validation date (end of June). 

I thought the issue here was primarily related to folks "furnishing" calves for kids, particularly heifers, where the breeder got the calf back in the end.

 

[justme]

OK I was one of those kids that didn't grown up on a "real" farm.  If it weren't for a local dairy farmer I would have never had the chance to show.  I'm telling you I milked my fair share of cows and pitched many a stall to help pay for the feed ect.  Not every kid has the $ or resources (parents with knowledge) to show cattle.  I will forever in debt to these people who took me under there wing and taught me the lesson of hard work and responsibility.  I want to make it clear I had WONDERFUL parents but they just didn't know how to "help" me with something like showing that I wanted so bad.  If it weren't for this local Dairy Farmer, I don't know where I'd be today.

Before we moved to Missouri, I always helped "troubled" kids by helping them purchase hogs, or calves and letting them keep them at our farm.  I think what we did to help kids is different than what some of the people in the show ring are doing out there.  But remember some of us use our ranches and livestock to give a kid a chance that they may not have gotten otherwise.  I really think there are situations out that ligitimate and these kids should be given a chance and not looked down upon.

Wow....didn't mean to get on a soapbox but reading thru the posts, I felt I needed to stand up for the kids that reminded me of myself when I was there age.  Put your claws away and don't tear me apart please

 

[red]

Rip, rip rip! That's Killer Kitty tearing into you!
No, just kidding- I think it's great as long as the kids do the work. From your post you did & you expect them to do the same.
I think it's the ones that don't do the work, put any effort into & still expect the banner that I object to!
Wasn't so bad was it?

Red

 

[chambero]

I think several of us were trying to make the same point you were.  There were a lot of us that got in the program like that and I think we are probably the most ardent supporters of the whole program today because of it.  The "good" associated with these types of arrangements greatly outweigh (and outnumber) the few that try to take advantage of it.

 

[DLD]

Maybe I came across as being more against this than I am. I said I'm not against helping out a kid (I've done it myself), as long as the animal is in their name and they are responsible for it's care, and they are the only one to show it, during the shows designated ownership period. All I'm saying is that it's hard to draw the line between an adult giving a kid a chance to show that might not otherwise have that chance, and an adult that just wants a kid to stick their cattle in the junior shows.

 

[Clubcalfshowgirl]

So all you people that think its O.K. for these kids to not OWN these animals where do you draw the line?  I mean are they not breaking the rules?  Maybe they aren't?  Maybe there isn't a rule that says they have to own the animal.  I know I showed steers and we had to own and care for the animals ourself!  If there is where do you draw the line?  Breaking this rule is O.K.  but breaking this one isn't and who is the one who decides which rules to fallow?  Do you tell everyone which rules to fallow?

Ok! as heifers i believe it is ok to show others for people. STEERS on the other hand i cant stand it when parents/fitters/owners do all the work and as yall said all the kids do is walk in the ring (I know plenty that all they have to do is dump  feed and wash and blow out at the fair (required for the kids to) i know kids that dont know the color of there steers and i know people who get mad if they dont win even tho they dont do ANYTHING with the calf. Believe me i might live in a small town but our county fair is one of the best in Florida. Alot of parents do everything goes on.

 

[showcattlegal]

I agree heifers are different from steers. We let other kids show my heifers but they do all the work and for there hard work i pay them back for all the feed.They love it because some kids get to show that don't have the room to keep a cow heard, and they like to buy the steers out of the heifers they showed. But there's only some people i do this with they have to  know what they are doing, and be willing to work really heard.

 

[ELBEE]

MS. Co. KS. has a "no paid professional" policy. If professional fitters don't want to donate they're time equally to (all), then they can stay in the stands. Some do, some don't. At least it levels the benchmark, but the cream still rises to the top.

Teenagers trade calves like teeshirts, makes it a little confusing for the show committee. I guess that's why we eartag at weigh in.

We try to make the Co. fair as much an enjoyable learning experience as possible.

 

[garybob]

The only people that are against non-owner kids showing heifers are, usually the bullying-type cocky, arrogant rich kids who don't like competition at the shows.
Especially when they get beat by a "nobody", whose parents aren't cattlemen or in big with the "right" group of people.

 

[DLD]

The only people that are against non-owner kids showing heifers are, usually the bullying-type cocky, arrogant rich kids who don't like competition at the shows.
Especially when they get beat by a "nobody", whose parents aren't cattlemen or in big with the "right" group of people.

Not hardly... Believe it or not there are kids out there who work to pay for and feed a show calf, and they've got every reason to be unhappy to get beat by, or have to share their premiums with a borrowed one. The truth here is that for every kid showing a borrowed calf that's doing it right (caring for it themselves) and wouldn't be able to do it any other way there's another kid showing a borrowed calf that is doing so because the adult owner(s) of the calf want it to be shown, but want to retain ownership of it. And in most of those cases, that kid could go buy and feed one themselves - their families are the relatives, friends and business associates of said adults that just want their calves shown.

 

[Tx Black Steer]

I agree with DLD!  It's not only the rich kids!  Some people want to fallow the rules and do things the right way and expect others to do the same.  I had to work for my animals and so do my kids.  If we can't afford to do something we don't do it.  If the rules say you have to own the animal you should own it!  Pigs are a big thing around here.  The breeders like to lease out their best gilts and get them back.  They say they are doing it for the kids, but they always give their best to the kids that can afford to buy them anyways.  One finally told me he liked to do it because it got the pig showed by a good feeder and at the least he didn't have to feed it for awhile and then got it back after the show.  They call this "renting" or "leasing".  I still say its not right.  If the kid can't sell the animal at any time for any amount of money then they don't own the animal!  There is always some problem with the pigs in this area because some breeder can't get his gilt back.  I think its funny!  I think other junior projects are the same way.  If the rules say you have to own the animal you should own it!