jakes proud jazz-30,000 pounds

[knabe]

this is what's called risk averse.  that's why, even though one may prove something, emotions rule.  that's why populism wins, even though it may be hurting you.

 

[aj]

I have calves on feed at Montezuma Ks(shorthorn proof positive national test) They should be harvesting them soon.The shorthorn cattle the last couple years haven't set the world on fire for choice but have been super efficient.The thing that killed the shorthorn was the black hide myth.Shorthorns drifted away to the showring side.Now the industry has a bunch of black hided cattle that don't grade.All I'm asking is give peace(jpj) a chance.On my yearling bull pen this year I tried a kit pharo approach. They were fed water and cane feed and a crystalix brigade tub. They are very green. It is interesting to see the ones that held up the best.I don't think the yearling weights are going to come out much over 900#. If I had grained them they would weigh 1100#. The one yearling durham red bull will be going out here shortly maybe weighing 900# on 25 heifers. I think he will gain weight on green grass...we'll see.Sent the one shorthorn to salebarn cause he didn't hold up. The all roughage test deal opened my eyes. 6$ corn is going to crush the livestock industry and kit is alot closer to right then anyone knows.Great disscusion guys.

 

[shortdawg]

I have been Pro-JPJ for some time. However, if you were to look at my posts recommending him, I have always stated that he will downsize, add style, hair, and muscle as well as he needed to be bred to the upper-moderate to large frame cows. The cow that Jill(?) talked about flushing to him was 1800 lbs would be the ideal type cow for him.  Though I do think he would work well on some smaller than that. He is definitely not the savior of the breed but does have his place.
JIT, I do appreciate your post on the BW deal. If you read my article back in the herd reference issue last year I made reference to the same things about the shape of calves being as important as anything on true calving ease.

 

[aj]

Wouldn't adding hair while being th free be a plus?

 

[shortdawg]

He is one of the best sires for shorthorn show calves out, period. His calves come into the world ready for the ring. I'm not sure how his females do as momma cows. I have seen some and they were moderate and had a nice look, time will tell.  You know those TH positive cattle have been proven to have the phenotype for the ring ( hair,etc.) and I think JPJ has that in a TH & PHA Free package. JMHO

 

[aj]

Thanks shortdawg.

 

[C-CROSS]

In our neck of the woods Kit's ideas are far from a workable solution, with farm ground renting 80 an acre there isn't a lot of excess pasture, and send a 800-900 pound bull out in the river hills and see what happens.  As far from shorties not producing in the feed yard I beg to differ, we have feed our cattle out the last 5 years and the shorties grade and yeild as good as the blacks.  We went in to the yard the end of Oct and the first load went out yesterday.

 

[aj]

I talked to the guy who does cattle for the big satelite auctions company. He said he saw one close out sheet that the owner made 7$ a head on a pen(3.50 corn and distillers grain that was forwarded contracted at half of what it is now. He saw another close out sheet where the guy lost 312$ a head on a pen of 98 head(6.00 corn used). The guy lost 30,000 $ on a pen of cattle. I assume that he may be a little cranky when he bids on calves next fall. I expect a drastic price in feeders with new crop corn anyway. I think there is a wreck coming. I really think the hard doing cattle are in trouble.jmo It is a whole different economy then 2$ corn.

 

[knabe]

what's nice about today's world, is that the corrections will come quicker as well.  just a few years ago, no one would have ever even bothered trying to eliminate ethanol subsidies.  i can't even believe i'm being positive about this.  the best case scenario for liquidity for new producers will come in the form of lower land prices.  this will of course hurt some.  my feeling is that the government should sell some land and quit subsidizing high land prices and reduced land base for flexibility minded producers.  on the other hand, it's gonna be pretty hard to rent pasture from someone who owns land versus the government.  on the other hand, if one can't make money owning the land, the price will come down.  should the ability to produce be rewarded more than the ability to simply produce from rent?  my feeling is that it should be similar to housing.  an equilibrium is reached when it costs the same to own a house as it does to rent one.  that's how you know when a true bottom is reached.  otherwise you have to subsidize it in the form of sub prime loans, lower down payments, mortgage deductions, child tax credit etc.  once you start, it's always a race to stay ahead of not getting a chair in musical chairs and is exacerbated by an ever increasing flow of new subsidies.

 

[GONEWEST]

1. It's not a black hide "myth." There have been a gazillion studies that show that it's difficult to tell what color the hide was from a cut of beef, I don't think anyone who knows cattle believes any different. The black hide thing is a fact of marketing. If the carcass can't qualify for CAB, then you'll get docked. Even though everyone knows any carcass that met the CAB quality standard would be the same no matter what color the hide was. Commercial people just can't sell cattle that aren't black for as much as they can those that are. In my mind, the angus breed had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel in the late 80's. It was a stroke of marketing genius to promote what they had that no one else did, name brand recognition by consumers and black color. Hat's off to them for forever changing the beef industry in this country.

2. To me, the best way to handle the calving ease thing and still keep as many pluses as possible from higher birth weight calves is to select for cows that can have larger calves. When I was in school there was an ongoing research project for years that showed us the most important thing in the profitability of a beef herd was for a cow to be able to have as large a calf as possible without problems. The calves grew faster to weaning, were more efficient, sold for more dollars because they weighed more, etc, etc. If the calf was too big for the cow and she had problems of course that meant it took more management, took longer to breed back, etc. etc. Also we found that there weren't truly as many " curve benders" as advertised, mostly just calving ease bulls. And we found that heifers sired by calving ease bulls had more problems calving than those who weren't. The more generations of calving ease bulls the more difficult for the heifers first calves and also the smaller those calves were at birth.

3. JPJ is a really good shorthorn bull in my thoughts. Some of his calves are too fine boned for me, but that's what happens on small birth weight bulls, usually. Just like all other bulls, he's not the be all/end all for everything. But it's difficult to find bulls that calve easily and consistently have calves that are saleable at a premium for show calves. He can certainly do this and that means a lot in my book.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I agree that we as a breed need to try to do something to bring down BW's, but in my opinion we need to start focusing in on the Calving Ease EPD a little more.  Also to throw a bull out there that is low BW and also will grow is K-Kim Revamp.  Look at the WW and YW on that guy also look at his BW.  I have a bull calf out of him right now that just hit 6 mo, and he is a stud!!!

 

[aj]

is revamp pha th clean?

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I believe so, but not 100% sure.

 

[ATOZ]

I agree that we as a breed need to try to do something to bring down BW's, but in my opinion we need to start focusing in on the Calving Ease EPD a little more.  Also to throw a bull out there that is low BW and also will grow is K-Kim Revamp.  Look at the WW and YW on that guy also look at his BW.  I have a bull calf out of him right now that just hit 6 mo, and he is a stud!!!

We just had a heifer had a 78# bull calf out of Tonic. Her water broke at noon and at 2:00 she had him unassited!! By 4:00 he was up and nursing. I would use him again on heifers.

 

[KYsteer]

OK, there is something about the Shorthorn breed that has bugged me for years that I just cannot hold in anymore.  In my opinion for what it is worth the Shorthorn breed has gone so far away from what it was bred and meant to be.  As a british breed, it should be a moderate, maternal cow that can survive in a forage based environment.  Instead what you see when you go through herds or breed to some of these Shorthorn bulls are huge BW's and 100+ calves with legs as big as post.  Of the shorthorns I have had their mothering ability is very questionable, and the milk is below average.  If you look at average BW's across breed the Shorthorn has higher weights than most of the Continental breeds except for Charolais.  There is something very wrong with that.  I think about the record numbers you see at the North American, but look at their registration numbers and realize how far down the list they are, and where they rank in the cattle industry today.  I am sure that there are examples of breeders out there who are breeding the right kind of cattle and these examples will be brought up, but all I can say is that if I was a purebred shorthorn breeder I would really have to question the path that my breed is going in.

 

[aj]

 

[garybob]

OK, there is something about the Shorthorn breed that has bugged me for years that I just cannot hold in anymore.  In my opinion for what it is worth the Shorthorn breed has gone so far away from what it was bred and meant to be.  As a british breed, it should be a moderate, maternal cow that can survive in a forage based environment.  Instead what you see when you go through herds or breed to some of these Shorthorn bulls are huge BW's and 100+ calves with legs as big as post.  Of the shorthorns I have had their mothering ability is very questionable, and the milk is below average.  If you look at average BW's across breed the Shorthorn has higher weights than most of the Continental breeds except for Charolais.  There is something very wrong with that.  I think about the record numbers you see at the North American, but look at their registration numbers and realize how far down the list they are, and where they rank in the cattle industry today.  I am sure that there are examples of breeders out there who are breeding the right kind of cattle and these examples will be brought up, but all I can say is that if I was a purebred shorthorn breeder I would really have to question the path that my breed is going in.

You know, KY Steer, some of us have tried to ''stem the tide'', and got our butts handed to us from both ends--1. our local sale barns, and 2. a breed association that only pays lip service to those of us breeders who were working in earnest.

Don't blame me. I didn't select for hair. Goosey fronts on weaned heifers make for hard-doing, frail cows later on.

GB

 

[marsh]

Anybody know the cane/semen code for Jake's Proud Jazz?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Jill]

I show 109AP89, seems like a strange number??

 

[Show Heifer]

Quote by justintime:
I hate to bash any bull in this discussion, as I am sure JPJ has a great place in our industry. It seems to me that many are running to him as if he is the savior of the Birth weight world. I am sure he will continue to sire some great offspring, but how many " throw aways" can any of us afford in the pursuit of some great ones?  


I had to chuckle when I read this!! Why? How many THOUSANDS and maybe MILLIONS of cows heatwave or heat seeker were bred to that were "throw aways" , not to mention the cows that were injured due to birth weight and yet, "they are THE bull to use" in the clubbie world.

I have always said "I play percentages". If a bull is used by tom, dick and harry and they get one champion, and a class winner, that sure beats the bull that is bred to THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of cows and has one champion and a class winner. Percentages are in the first bulls favor.

A lot of bulls are being used today in AI that would not make good herd bulls (some wouldn't make good steers). But due to promotion and that one lucky break of winning that "big show" they become famous and a must use bull. All in the name of a purple banner. wow.