Jake's Proud Jazz calves

[justintime]

aj.... I am wondering why you say Cagwin hates him. When I was at Cags sale on Labor Day, we had a long conversation about sires in the breed. Cagwin was very complimentary of the JPJ and his  calves. His only complaint about him was that he said you have to be careful what you breed him too. Kevin Kimmerling has also said the same thing. He said that some of the JPJ do not have enough growth to be useful to the breed, or to become good feeder cattle. He also said that the ones that have enough growth, usually will grow into extremely usefu, and good cattle.

I must say that I tend to agree from the few JPJ calves I have seen. I have seen some super... excellent calves. I have also seen some frame 4 fluff balls that will never grow into anything useful. As you all know.. I am a big fan of moderate cattle.... but I am not a fan of cattle of any frame size, that are not effiecient producers of beef and do not have good growth patterns. I am afraid that some of these lower WPDA cattle will be discounted even more on the markets. I have not seen JPJ in person, but I do think he looks great in the picture we all have seen of him. Some people who I consider to be excellent cattle producers saw him last summer and said that JPJ is a frame 4.7 bull. That alone suggests to me that he should be used on larger framed cows.. or at least, cows on the larger side of moderate framed.

Here is some food for thought.... I just read today,in a leading Canadian beef magazine, an article that states that here in Canada, there will soon be larger discounts on smaller carcasses at the packers. It says that recent trends in reducing carcass size by producers is being met by opposition by both feeders and packers. If this is true..... what does this say about us as  producers, not producing what our customers( feeders and packers) want? This article states that smaller carcass weights will be subjected to penalties of up to $35/cwt. in the near future.

We are in some interesting times. In the beef business it takes a few years to swing the industry from one fad to another, simply due to the generation time of a cattle beast. The US and Canadian cow herd continues to get smaller. Cattle on feed in summer 2008 at down 12.3 % from 2007.Canada has lost over 8500 beef farms in the last 3 years. I think the same trends can be said for the US. Replacement heifers are down 3.3 % in 2008 over 2007. The statistics for recent months are not available yet but I am sure they will show that the cow kill is not slowing. At an August cull cow and bull sale at an auction mart near me, 1400 head passed through the ring. I have never seen an August sale of more than 200 head anytime before. I have heard some feedlot managers talking about $1000 feeder calves in 2009. They say that the North American cow numbers are even below what the analysts are reporting.They may be right... I am not sure... but I think they may be partly right.

I do not think there is a person in the beef business that does not want to moderate the frame of their cows, and also add some easy fleshing abilities to all the cattle they produce. There are several ways to do this, but I believe we need to be very thoughtful of how this is done... and with a steady eye on where we want to end up.

 

[DLD]

I guess there are some different frame score charts floating around out there, but I've seen JPJ a number of times, and I'm pretty sure that he's bigger than a 4.7... 

I know he's not the answer for every cow or every breeder, but he's a darn good bull when used right.

 

[shortdawg]

I think he is 52 inches - whatever that equates to.

 

[justintime]

I cannot find my frame score chart for mature bulls... but I am thinking that a 52 inch bull is more than a 4.7 frame. The people who told me this, told me that they measured JPJ with a frame score tape, and they said he framed a 4.7 on it. They may have been wrong, I do not know, but that is what they reported to me. Don't take me wrong, I think this bull offers us all a great deal. I really like the majority of his calves. I am just saying that I have seen some that I do not think they have enough grow power... but that can be said for calves from a large variety of sires. JPJ is an extremely significant breeding piece. He will leave his mark... and for the most part it will  be good.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I wouldn't use him on any kind of moderate cow.  I would use him on heifers and on larger framed cows that you want to moderate. 

 

[Jill]

I'll see if I can get some pics tomorrow, we flushed to an 1800# big girl and have a really nice heifer out of him our youngest is going to show next year, no hair is the only down side to this calf.  Like I have stated before, he has his place and if used correctly he excels anything else out there, I think for 2008 calves you will see some poor performance because people used him on everything because of the calving ease with no regard to frame size at all.  I may be wrong, but I thought a 52 would be closer to a 5 frame.

 

[OH Breeder]

I'll see if I can get some pics tomorrow, we flushed to an 1800# big girl and have a really nice heifer out of him our youngest is going to show next year, no hair is the only down side to this calf.  Like I have stated before, he has his place and if used correctly he excels anything else out there, I think for 2008 calves you will see some poor performance because people used him on everything because of the calving ease with no regard to frame size at all.  I may be wrong, but I thought a 52 would be closer to a 5 frame.

I used him on more extreme sized heifers. I stayed away using him on my smaller framed cattle because of exactly what I had heard. We are excited to see how he does and have one coming March. I went back to Diamond Leggs for my moderate heifers and am crossing my fingers for moderate calves.

 

[doubled]

Those are flat out awesome heifers

 

[aj]

I think he would be a good tool to move the breed in a direction. Growth and performance cover alot of territory. Is performance wpda or is performance pounds weaned off an acre of grass. I just cringe at people maxing out yearling epds in cattle and thinking it is good. What the feeder wants and what works for cows aren't always the same. If the packer wants to buy grass at 500$ an acre and care for a cow calf herd 7 days a week maybe he can raise the perfect feeder calf.Maternal breeds should have different goals than terminal breeds. I think we need cattle that grow hard and efficient and then their growth curve stops. This prevents the 1800# cow syndrome where cows grow 300# a year till they are are 5 year olds.jmho

 

[knabe]

where is the largest percentage of growth in a cow from 3-5 years (discounting rumen, etc carrying capacity)?  this probably has a few answers. 

 

[shortdawg]

I can't remember for sure where I got the 52 inch number but, I have looked him in the eye and I'd say he's a 5 frame. JMHO based on a close encounter as SD would say.  <alien>

 

[TJ]

I saw somewhere that he was a 52-53 inch tall bull.  My Lowline bull, Doc Holliday, is probably crowding 49 inches, and I am pretty sure that he was only about 4 inches shorter than JPJ. 

 

[aj]

Some cattle mature early and quit growing. Others keep growing frame. I remember in the late 70's breeders saying hub's impact two daughters would keep getting bigger as 3 and 4 year olds which was a little unusual at the time.

 

[JoeBnTN]

I cannot find my frame score chart for mature bulls... but I am thinking that a 52 inch bull is more than a 4.7 frame. The people who told me this, told me that they measured JPJ with a frame score tape, and they said he framed a 4.7 on it. They may have been wrong, I do not know, but that is what they reported to me. Don't take me wrong, I think this bull offers us all a great deal. I really like the majority of his calves. I am just saying that I have seen some that I do not think they have enough grow power... but that can be said for calves from a large variety of sires. JPJ is an extremely significant breeding piece. He will leave his mark... and for the most part it will  be good.

JiT,

There are several different frame score charts adopted by various breeds each having some slight differences.  The Texas A&M chart is one that is something of a "median" for all of these and it lists a 4 frame mature bull at 54" tall as a 4 frame and a "56" bull as a 5 frame.  That sounds about right - although you do have to consider whether the animal was fed for show which tends to slightly increase frame size.

IHTH

 

[chambero]

Here is some food for thought.... I just read today,in a leading Canadian beef magazine, an article that states that here in Canada, there will soon be larger discounts on smaller carcasses at the packers. It says that recent trends in reducing carcass size by producers is being met by opposition by both feeders and packers. If this is true..... what does this say about us as  producers, not producing what our customers( feeders and packers) want? This article states that smaller carcass weights will be subjected to penalties of up to $35/cwt. in the near future.

I do not think there is a person in the beef business that does not want to moderate the frame of their cows, and also add some easy fleshing abilities to all the cattle they produce. There are several ways to do this, but I believe we need to be very thoughtful of how this is done... and with a steady eye on where we want to end up.

Do you know that the the lower limit on carcass weights are that they start discounting?

We are trying to get "easier feeding" genetics into our calves and improve ADGs.  The ideal avg carcass for the buyers we deal with is 807 lbs with them wanting the majority of the cattle falling between 700-900 lbs.  I'm sure that's no revelation, but what lower limit are the packers starting to truly discount at?  In relation to this post, I can't imagine that the JPJ average calf carcass wouldn't fall in that 800 lb range.

This is an example of where I think our "show steer" genetics may be closer in line to what the feedlot industry wants than what purebred breeders try to do (with giant cattle).

 

[CAB]

  If you look @ the history, it doesn't seem to matter what the critreria that we meet, the packers will change it so THAT THEY CAN DOCK, for 1 reason or the other. Remember when the "perfect" slaughter wt. for pork was 220 to 240 lbs? Now look @ it. JMO. Brent

 

[JoeBnTN]

Here is some food for thought.... I just read today,in a leading Canadian beef magazine, an article that states that here in Canada, there will soon be larger discounts on smaller carcasses at the packers. It says that recent trends in reducing carcass size by producers is being met by opposition by both feeders and packers. If this is true..... what does this say about us as  producers, not producing what our customers( feeders and packers) want? This article states that smaller carcass weights will be subjected to penalties of up to $35/cwt. in the near future.

I do not think there is a person in the beef business that does not want to moderate the frame of their cows, and also add some easy fleshing abilities to all the cattle they produce. There are several ways to do this, but I believe we need to be very thoughtful of how this is done... and with a steady eye on where we want to end up.

Do you know that the the lower limit on carcass weights are that they start discounting?

From what I've read recently the real problems are carcasses weighing 650 and under and those over 900.  The price of corn may well eliminate the 900 pound carcasses to a large extent since no one will want to feed them that long.  The other issue however is the days on feed and the total time to market.  As money gets even tighter everyone will want to cattle to the rail as quickly as possible.  How many of the bulls out there today can sire steers that will hit  that 1200-1350 weight by 14-15 months and a 112 day feeding period? 

We are trying to get "easier feeding" genetics into our calves and improve ADGs.  The ideal avg carcass for the buyers we deal with is 807 lbs with them wanting the majority of the cattle falling between 700-900 lbs.  I'm sure that's no revelation, but what lower limit are the packers starting to truly discount at?  In relation to this post, I can't imagine that the JPJ average calf carcass wouldn't fall in that 800 lb range.

This is an example of where I think our "show steer" genetics may be closer in line to what the feedlot industry wants than what purebred breeders try to do (with giant cattle).

 

[simtal]

lower limit ( the real big dock ) is 550

some have a smaller dock at 600

 

[TJ]

Some frame score charts have 53 inches as a frame 4, others have 54 inches as a frame 4.  OCC Anchor wasn't even a frame 4 (based on what I've been told) & JPJ has been compared to Anchor.  My guess is that JPJ probably is a frame 4 bull.   

RE dock of carcass weight... even a 1/2 Lowline steer will easily yield 600+ lb. carcasses, especially the grain fed ones.  A 550-600 lb. or under carcass weight is awfully small. 

 

[chambero]

Some frame score charts have 53 inches as a frame 4, others have 54 inches as a frame 4.   OCC Anchor wasn't even a frame 4 (based on what I've been told) & JPJ has been compared to Anchor.  My guess is that JPJ probably is a frame 4 bull.   

RE dock of carcass weight... even a 1/2 Lowline steer will easily yield 600+ lb. carcasses, especially the grain fed ones.  A 550-600 lb. or under carcass weight is awfully small. 

We all split hairs too much.  We argue about slight differences between really good cattle in the grand scheme of things.  Bulls whose calves top out with 600 lbs carcasses are probably more akin to roping stock than beef cattle.  I still don't believe there are very many purebred or show steer bulls whose calves don't fall into desired carcass ranges, at least on weight for sure.