jds stout

[hart]

Iv seen some great OLD cows from stout and had some animals that shared him as a grandsire.  Thinking ahead I wondered if he is a good choice or even if seman can be found for a good price anymore or not (really, one could search around but I decided to get some feedback on him and toss the avaibility issue out at the same time.)

Please share any info/stories (I mean really, at the end of the day i just want a good story anyways...)

 

[xxcc]

you can still get semen on him, even from dave stout I believe.  $25.  i'm sure there are better bulls out there though.  there's been lots of people tell me he was short on milk.  i used JD a full sib to stout, complete calving wreck.  kept two heifers anyway, canned one a year later because of no milk.

if you're looking for old bulls to use, metric might be a better bet, or midas or magic, even smithbuilt.

 

[Joe Boy]

I used him on 1/2 Maine and 1/2 Shorthorn cows and I got all bulls ..... they grew well.  Were not as thick as I wanted and were cut up in the flank....but they did grow fast....  No keepers.

 

[DL]

Stout sired more Cornerstone dams than any other bull for quite a few years. Semen is still available - call Dave for stories. Midas will give you great females but semen is rare and not cheap; Magic will also give you great females with show ring appeal  (and a titch of color) - semen is available but not inexpensive. Smithbilt also great females but bigger than what most want today. I am very happy with my Midas and Magic daughters (and granddaughters) (sorry - not much of a story)

 

[hart]

Females is really what Id be crossing my fingures for... So I like the info DL (and everyone else too).  I dont think Iv ever seen any Midas...
there are a few sires i know little about (I like to think its a sign of youth) again besides the cows I see out in the field (who are impressive) but do/did DMCC Polled Premier, Pistol Pete or Sugar Ray (i know, hes kinda a stray in the list) make good long living good mothering cows?

 

[DL]

The Pistol Pete females were really good cows - I tried repeatedly to get Pete heifers and all I ever got was bulls so I gave up. They were bigger (I like big cows) and generally had some color. As I recall Premier was in the top 5 show sires of the year in the late 90s and sired some pretty nice show heifers - I was never personally fond of the Premier females - their temperament didn't suit me. Don't know a thing about Sugar Ray

One of the most impressive Midas daughters I ever saw was ZTA Black Ruby 224X (805518) - I have a picture of her and some other Midas and Magic daughters I'll try and find

 

[xxcc]

Stout sired more Cornerstone dams than any other bull for quite a few years.

nobody can argue with fact, but i will say, the quickest way to get cornerstone dams is with a sharp pencil.  i can name one breeder that has the most extreme epd's in the breed, based on performance, his cattle should far surpass anything out there...you see very little of his cattle in the commercial world and only a few here and there in the registered world.

 

[DL]

Come on Mike - you see very few Maines in the commercial world - heck the breed doesn't even advertise in the national cattle magazines not sure what you mean about the sharp pencil - my Cornerstone dams calved easily, bred back quickly and the calves grew - it is hard to argue with 16 year old cow (no she is not a Stout) 

 

[knabe]

sharp pencil

there are a few animals in the registry that don't make numbers sense.  they would be in heavy use if they did and there would be no search for a curve bending low birth weight growthy maine calves.  they would even be in use in commercial herds and wouldn't need advertising because their numbers are so awesome.

on the other hand, i will be reviewing some of those numbers, but not those cattle to see if lightning can strike.  in one sense, it already has if even 50% of markers are relevant.  on the other hand, the markers could be useless and generated with a sharp pencil as well.  i will know within 3 months if something is worth doing.

it is my opinion that there has been more selection pressure than people are aware of in the maine breed (purebreds), and so far, i haven't found a reason to discount that theory.  its really interesting that for some traits that were fixed, they are either in low or non-existent numbers now.

 

[hart]

I guess i did have a Polled Premier heifer (out of the a stout cow) once.  She was kinda a meany when she was yeaned.  (she was really short though, which seems so odd given her background)

i cant speak for the breed, but one of the reasons i thought stout to start with is that iv liked a stout cow for about the last 11 years now.  thing is she was "old" way back then.  I don t know how old she is but shes got some age on her.

I understand popular bulls go before thier time do to overcollection... but i always wonder/second guess a sire whos young when he dies (as it seems so many culd sires are).  I know the bull isnt who i should be looking at though.  Is the old stout cow iv been chasing since the last decade a rare thing?  who makes thoughs cows who seem to live forever/easy keeping?  (i know, its the million dollar question, but you all seem to have a lot of experience bt ya)

 

[hart]

not to sound smart... but which traits?

 

[knabe]

not to sound smart... but which traits?

anything antagonistic

 

[CAB]

  Right now in the Ma cattle for new maternal bull, I am watching the Lamborghini sons Gucci, Catalyst, & Predator, all Midas grandsons. I think that the Gucci bull maybe stacked Midas, but not 100% sure about that without going back to dig up his pedigree.
  BTW there are some very good JDS Stout cows running around. Sunseeker on a good Stout cow works well.

 

[Joe Boy]

I think in the next few years we had better be using bulls that come small, grow fast and fatten up quickly with as little grain as possible at 1100 lbs.

In the commercial market there are not many players out there that will buy your yearling 900-1000 lb calves coming off wheat pasture as there were.  The market is not good.  Genetics will be the thing that keeps us in the game.

Like, Mike (xxcc) I think that some pencils have led down the wrong road.  I hope the MAPP and feed test will correct some of the numbers of the past.  I have a bull that in the three years I have used him has gone from a 2.2 to 4.8 on the BW.  HE is in my herd and we have only pullled one calf from a heifer out of him.  I don't know why his numbers are changing.  At the same time his milk has dropped from 21.8 to 17.  Yet, his calves and his daughters calves wean at a higher rate of gain than my other bulls.  I love the cows and heifers from him.  They have wonderful udders and teats.  They are larger than my other cattle but are easy to handle and raise great calves.  I guess because his granddad and dad are popular sires that his numbers will change, but I have not seen anything in my herd that would change them.  I think his papers are wrong about him being polled.  I wish I had the money to put his sons in a feed frogram.  I am seriously thinking of doing that this next Spring.

 

[DL]

As I recall the AMAA changed the way they calculated EPDs some couple of years ago - can't remember the specifics but they may have used the all breed numbers instead of just the MA #s. I don't think the MAAP will change a thing - it was done before and faded fast - the AMAA has become primarily a show and crossbred registry - instead of promoting a really great breed of cattle

 

[mark tenenbaum]

As I recall the AMAA changed the way they calculated EPDs some couple of years ago - can't remember the specifics but they may have used the all breed numbers instead of just the MA #s. I don't think the MAAP will change a thing - it was done before and faded fast - the AMAA has become primarily a show and crossbred registry - instead of promoting a really great breed of cattle- I heard that, same thing in shorthorns but it is warrented due to obvious misreps. of BWS. I think Maines are the most improved cattle right now- and the influence of shorthorns is huge the dna on almost everything but chis and herefords go directly back to them- isnt it strange that maines and shorts  are some of the least accepted cattle in commercial use? And that Angus are quickly becoming the least accepted purebred cattle? O0

 

[DL]

A bull that hasn't been mentioned is The Witch Doctor - he lived well into his teens and sired some pretty darn good females. In his day he was almost a tri athlete kind of bull in that he sired good show cattle (heifers and steers), good females and pretty good bulls. His steer style isn't probably what currently is desired but he still makes good females, productive, sound, good milk, pretty to look at and with longevity - semen still around at $20 I think. I have been real happy with my Witch Doctor females

 

[Joe Boy]

DL, I agree with you about Witch Doctor.  He also downsized some of the larger bone wagon type cows of the original FBs.

I think some of the bulls today have more of a dual purpose, too.

 

[hart]

My witchdoctor animals moved around very well, but they never seemed thick enuogh for me...  is that just my experience?

going back the the commercial side... i once placed about 12 head of maine and chi influenced animals in with some Herefords for a winter.  my animals were the king of the pack (despite not having horns) but at the end of the season the herefords were still fat and my girls looked much like kate moss. Without grain or good intensive grassing they went skinny fast…in the future i REALLY want easy(er) keepers that still produce quality offspring. 

Do FB maines or shorties offer a better package of Easy fleshing, thick toped depth of heart walkers without too straight rear leg or shoulders.  Am I going wrong looking for such qualities in the main cross cattle?

 

[knabe]

Do FB maines or shorties offer a better package of Easy fleshing, thick toped depth of heart walkers without too straight rear leg or shoulders.  

personally, etula base supposedly crosses on what you are trying to cross with.

a lot of fullblood maine's were known for taking back fat off.  that said, there are a few that will put it on.

http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=274924

i'm probably wrong, but i thought his marbling number was 0.08 recently.

personally, what i would like to see is these numbers of time on a graph, what the std dev, coefficient of variability is etc.  then again, not many are fans or have the capability of reporting carcass stats.

here's another.

http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=8223

he's known for not milking much.  he might fit your bill though if you don't mind less milk.  others, though not many have commented he's just adequate on milk.

for what it's worth, people have been trying to detangle red alert for about 20 years.  it is still going on.  at least the calving issue is probably decently addressed if there is no sharp penciling.