JPJ calves

[garybob]

Y'all, I don't think 92 pounds is a "bad" BW. I like him! He looks like he's gonna latch on to a teat 'n grow. He's also masculine, even at a young age, You can tell he's a bull calf.

The problem I have is with BW's is two-fold. Number one, not everyone is reporting all Birth weight records (including the dead ones). this, I think leads to the inconsistency of predidcting Birth Weight (and calculating reliable EPD's that newcomers to a Breed won't get 'dooinked' with a dead calf and a crippled-or dead-ex-show heifer). Number two, I am angry as Heck about internal politics within a breed association multiplying this problem exponentially (took me two times to pass college algebra, but, Im no dumb@$$). The breed association that I am endeared to, decided to take a step backward and re-evalute "where we are today", as far as Commercial-orientation. When this particular Breed Association pushed everything back to 1982 ( the "environmental trend" for BW was originally 82 pounds), and re-calculated our database, a certain, currently-popular bull showed an EPD of PLUS 12pointsomething. The owner/breeder( a relative newcomer to the breed, by the way) of this Cow-killer pitched a fit, and got the Genetic Evaluation data changed TO HIS LIKING, and, now, his ''great'' bull has an EPD of plus 8-something.

Thank our Lucky Stars that this particular breeder lost his bid to sit our National Board of Directors.

Nice calf. He's not too big. I firmly believe that 145 pounds is WAY TOO STINKING BIG! Anyone with any common sense knows that, too.

I've held back for too long.

GB

since you are being so coy, i will join in.  for my question i will call your entirely mythical breeder tully.  i assume that tully is quite wealthy; but, it seems unlikey that one man could wield so much power in the organization.  how did this happen?  isn't there an attorney on the board.  didn't the commercially oriented breeders on the BOD fight this.

SRU of course no one on the board would fight it. They are shorthorn breeders and there is no such thing as a commercially oriented shorthorn breeder.

Why, itk, do you say "there is no such thing as a  COmmercially-oriented Shorthorn Breeder"? Gimme your explanation, I'd like to hear it.

GB

 

[shortyjock89]

GB-Here's my take on it.  The vast majority of Shorthorn breeders in the United States are NOT commercial breeders.  The average sized Shorthorn herd is something like 8 cows, or something like that.  If you can't sell great volumes of uniform cattle, then you have to find your niche.  This means that most breeders try to raise show calves.  Hence, the great number of Shorthorn animals being exhibited.  The ratio of Shorthorn show animals to total Shorthorn animals might be higher than any other breed in the U.S.  Since most of the breeders are show-oriented, wouldn't it make sense for most of the BOD to be show oriented?  Also, commercial cattlemen would probably get fed up with the politics that surrounds the hierarchy of the breed.  I don't like it, and I'm a small time breeder.  Also, I just want to say that just because someone raises show cattle, that doesn't mean that they don't know good cattle; and just because someone is in the commercial business, that doesn't mean that they are much better cattlemen than everyone else.  Like we've all said before, there are good and bad in both.  It just seems to me, GB, that you really don't think that anyone who shows Shorthorns in this day and age knows squat about catte.  Sorry if this came off bad, because I really do agree with you on a BUNCH of points. This just the way I feel.  Don't think that I'm slamming you, because I would say this to anyone.

Respectfully

Justin Olson

 

[Doc]

SRU of course no one on the board would fight it. They are shorthorn breeders and there is no such thing as a commercially oriented shorthorn breeder.
[/quote]

itk, I've got to disagree with you on this one. I think that Waukaru, JIT, & several others would strongly disagree with you, also.I think they would consider themselves Shorthorn breeders 1st & foremost & then commercially oriented breeders 2nd. Lets take Barry Jordan for example. There is a breeder that provides a living for 3 families that raise Shorties ,yet  you don't see Barry showing anymore except at Denver in the pen show sometimes. I also would like to know what you are calling a commercial breeder. Is that someone who raises red, polled cattle to sell to other breeders or is it someone who raises Shortie calves that feeds all the heifers & bulls out in the feedyard? Justin , I do agree with you on a lot of the things that you said. I'm a small breeder also, I've got 25 momma cows & I raise what I think I can sell & make a profit on . If it's a red, polled bull that a guy wants to buy & use on black cows , that's great. If it's a pretty red necked roan hfr that some 10 year old girl throws a fit so daddy will buy it for her to show , that's fine also. JMO

 

[itk]

Sorry guys the sarcasm got lost in cyber space. There are hundreds of commercially oriented herds out there despite the beliefs of one of us on here. My theory is if going from a +12 to a +8 makes someone feel better let them have it because if it comes with any accuracy at all it is higher then most of us would want to use. I'll put a smiley at the end of my last post go back and read it and it will make more sense. GB keep fighting the good fight you make us all crazy and think at the same time.

 

[shorthorns r us]

i just realized why noone fought it to the bitter end.

there bulls BW EPD went down too.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander

 

[garybob]

GB-Here's my take on it.  The vast majority of Shorthorn breeders in the United States are NOT commercial breeders.  The average sized Shorthorn herd is something like 8 cows, or something like that.  If you can't sell great volumes of uniform cattle, then you have to find your niche.  This means that most breeders try to raise show calves.  Hence, the great number of Shorthorn animals being exhibited.  The ratio of Shorthorn show animals to total Shorthorn animals might be higher than any other breed in the U.S.  Since most of the breeders are show-oriented, wouldn't it make sense for most of the BOD to be show oriented?  Also, commercial cattlemen would probably get fed up with the politics that surrounds the hierarchy of the breed.  I don't like it, and I'm a small time breeder.  Also, I just want to say that just because someone raises show cattle, that doesn't mean that they don't know good cattle; and just because someone is in the commercial business, that doesn't mean that they are much better cattlemen than everyone else.  Like we've all said before, there are good and bad in both.  It just seems to me, GB, that you really don't think that anyone who shows Shorthorns in this day and age knows squat about catte.  Sorry if this came off bad, because I really do agree with you on a BUNCH of points. This just the way I feel.  Don't think that I'm slamming you, because I would say this to anyone.

Respectfully

Justin Olson

"might be''? 

GB

 

[JoeBnTN]

Y'all, I don't think 92 pounds is a "bad" BW. I like him! He looks like he's gonna latch on to a teat 'n grow. He's also masculine, even at a young age, You can tell he's a bull calf.

The problem I have is with BW's is two-fold. Number one, not everyone is reporting all Birth weight records (including the dead ones). this, I think leads to the inconsistency of predicting Birth Weight (and calculating reliable EPD's that newcomers to a Breed won't get 'dooinked' with a dead calf and a crippled-or dead-ex-show heifer). Number two, I am angry as Heck about internal politics within a breed association multiplying this problem exponentially (took me two times to pass college algebra, but, Im no dumb@$$). The breed association that I am endeared to, decided to take a step backward and re-evalute "where we are today", as far as Commercial-orientation. When this particular Breed Association pushed everything back to 1982 ( the "environmental trend" for BW was originally 82 pounds), and re-calculated our database, a certain, currently-popular bull showed an EPD of PLUS 12pointsomething. The owner/breeder( a relative newcomer to the breed, by the way) of this Cow-killer pitched a fit, and got the Genetic Evaluation data changed TO HIS LIKING, and, now, his ''great'' bull has an EPD of plus 8-something.

Thank our Lucky Stars that this particular breeder lost his bid to sit our National Board of Directors.

Nice calf. He's not too big. I firmly believe that 145 pounds is WAY TOO STINKING BIG! Anyone with any common sense knows that, too.

I've held back for too long.

GB

GB,

I'm not sure that what you've heard is exactly correct.  I think I know about the bull you're talking about and the fact is that his CALVING EASE score was (and still is) -12.1 and his BIRTH WEIGHT EPD is +9.6 lbs.  These 2 numbers refer to a similar trait obviously but they are entirely different figures.  As to the breed changing its base year, that has to be done from time to time, especially as you get more recent data.  If you go back and look at the beginnings of the breeds  efforts, very few cattle were actually recorded in the early years, so, as the breed chose to use another group to compute it's performance values (instead of the old Breed Plan) it was logical to use a new data point for the base year.

As to your complaint that the board doesn't have any commercial representation in its membership, I would strongly disagree.  While there is little doubt there is a bias toward the show ring, it's not completely one sided.  I think Derek Jungels has done a very good job of producing commercially accepted Shorthorns, also there's no doubt the Leveldale program is doing an exceptional job of producing very acceptable cattle for the commercial sector and Billy Zach Taylor, who loves to show cattle, has found a nice niche in producing very attractive cattle with excellent commercial acceptability.  Over the years I think this representation on the board has been fairly consistent.  To say that the breed has not made any steps toward reaching the commercial sector is an overstatement. 

I was fortunate enough to attend the session in Omaha a couple of years ago that focused much of its programming on how the breed can and should fit in the overall beef industry.  The amazing thing is that the breed still has much to offer the total industry - it just hasn't proven to be as economically valued as the show ring has been.  If you don't believe me, wait until the next round of USDA - MARC data comes out and you'll see just what this breed still can do.  There are a number of people in this breed who love to show but realize that we need to have a bigger picture view of the industry.  Yes, I think the breed has made some progress - it just has much more to do. 

Sorry, just realized that I was a getting up on my soapbox.

 

[itk]

JBT, My little brother works at MARC and it is always interesting to talk to him and see what their latest projects are. There are a few people that work there with shorthorn ties so hopefully they can get the breed involved in more research. My brother is either going to get fired for being obnoxious or get the shorthorn breed a whole lot of positive publicity up there. He told me every time they start something new he rattles off some shorty bulls that would do well in that particular test. He is a little fish in a big sea there but maybe someday his persistence will pay off.

 

[JoeBnTN]

ITK,

I think this next round of testing is going to showcase the Shorthorn breed very well.  The bulls selected for inclusion in the test will represent the breed very well - even if none of them ever sired a National Champion.

Have you seen any calves out of the JR Legacy 23G bull that went your way a couple of years ago?  Twig Marston and some others got him from Rex Tribbett and I wondered how the calves were looking.  We wanted to get him in the MARC test, but his accuracies were lower than they wanted for the test.  He's a great calving ease bull and the daughters will work.

JB

 

[aj]

I think the big factor on why the Shorthorn breed drifted to the show is the "black hide myth". In say 1975 around here anyway a commercial guy was okay to have color in his calves. It meant that there was some simmi or charolais or limi or whatever in his cattle. These continental blooded calves really worked. I don't know when it happened the black hided deal became the trend. I guess the Angus carcass program required a black hide to qualify for bonuses(u.s. premium beef). Then it seemed like every breed decided to pull a fast one and turn their breed black. The chi's, limi's,simi's,salers,gelbvieh,maine anjou,...who am I forgetting. Anyway, now the black hide is the mainstay in the commercial cattle world. Even bankers lean on people to have black cows cause they are worth an extra 100$ at the salebarn(also collateral). Now after we have all these black hides what do we have? 30-40 years ago cattle averaged 70% choice in the feedlots..mainly herfords, angus, and shorthorns. Today the commercial cattle (all black hided) are averaging 50% choice in feedlots. Even some of the angus(with a little chi in them aren't grading. Anyway I think it got so hard to compete in the color orientated commercial market the shorthorns drifted to the showring and loosing some commercial traits along the way. I think the "black hide myth" killed the Shorthorn breed in the commercial cattle arena. It may turn around. I know people are finding out how good the Red Angus cattle for example. Anyway "that the way it looks to me."

 

[itk]

ITK,

I think this next round of testing is going to showcase the Shorthorn breed very well.  The bulls selected for inclusion in the test will represent the breed very well - even if none of them ever sired a National Champion.

Have you seen any calves out of the JR Legacy 23G bull that went your way a couple of years ago?  Twig Marston and some others got him from Rex Tribbett and I wondered how the calves were looking.  We wanted to get him in the MARC test, but his accuracies were lower than they wanted for the test.  He's a great calving ease bull and the daughters will work.

JB

Twig is ten minutes away so there isn't a whole lot that goes on there we don't know about. I've only seen a few of the calves and they looked like good cattle to me. It seems like all of the people who have used him here are really happy with the calves.

 

[JoeBnTN]

Twig is ten minutes away so there isn't a whole lot that goes on there we don't know about. I've only seen a few of the calves and they looked like good cattle to me. It seems like all of the people who have used him here are really happy with the calves.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info!!  23g is a very interesting bull.  Dr. Hunsley found him for me severall years ago in the Denver pen show.  We later bought him out of the Spokane range bull sale, where he was the high selling Shorthorn bull - even though the sorting committee thought he was too big at a 6.7 frame score.  He's bred much like Mission and has a true predictable performance pedigree.

He's probably one of the most under appreciated bulls in the Shorthorn breed - we never really promoted him, then we sold him to Rex Tribbett and now he's in Kansas.  The bull has always been exceptionally sound and he is a true calving ease bull - the calves come in a very moderate size with a lot of life in them.  The only calf we ever pulled was one that come backwards.  Steers in steer tests were always at or near the top and the females are some of the best cows you can find.  Twig and I talked about the bull for several years before he got the chance to buy him and I think we both would agree that, if her were an Angus, his value and semen sales would be totally ridiculous.  It's a
%$#* shame that the Shorthorn breed hasn't valued bulls like 23G for some time. 

Anyway thanks for the info. If you see Twig before he heads to Nebraska, tell him I said hello!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I think the big factor on why the Shorthorn breed drifted to the show is the "black hide myth". In say 1975 around here anyway a commercial guy was okay to have color in his calves. It meant that there was some simmi or charolais or limi or whatever in his cattle. These continental blooded calves really worked. I don't know when it happened the black hided deal became the trend. I guess the Angus carcass program required a black hide to qualify for bonuses(u.s. premium beef). Then it seemed like every breed decided to pull a fast one and turn their breed black. The chi's, limi's,simi's,salers,gelbvieh,maine anjou,...who am I forgetting. Anyway, now the black hide is the mainstay in the commercial cattle world. Even bankers lean on people to have black cows cause they are worth an extra 100$ at the salebarn(also collateral). Now after we have all these black hides what do we have? 30-40 years ago cattle averaged 70% choice in the feedlots..mainly herfords, angus, and shorthorns. Today the commercial cattle (all black hided) are averaging 50% choice in feedlots. Even some of the angus(with a little chi in them aren't grading. Anyway I think it got so hard to compete in the color orientated commercial market the shorthorns drifted to the showring and loosing some commercial traits along the way. I think the "black hide myth" killed the Shorthorn breed in the commercial cattle arena. It may turn around. I know people are finding out how good the Red Angus cattle for example. Anyway "that the way it looks to me."

Without "the black hided myth", many local sale barn experts would be out of jobs. The old theory of "if it's black it has to be good" provided job security to order buyers that couldn't tell a great one from the sorriest calf ever born. The kill sheets prove this time after time. It amazes me that so many breeds are pushing carcass traits but the cattle that are in them won't grade with the cattle from 30 years ago before anyone had herd of an EPD for IMF, REA or BFAT. Too many people today of all breeds are breeding cattle on paper and not breeding cattle to be sound functional producers of quality beef. RW

 

[garybob]

Sorry guys the sarcasm got lost in cyber space. There are hundreds of commercially oriented herds out there despite the beliefs of one of us on here. My theory is if going from a +12 to a +8 makes someone feel better let them have it because if it comes with any accuracy at all it is higher then most of us would want to use. I'll put a smiley at the end of my last post go back and read it and it will make more sense. GB keep fighting the good fight you make us all crazy and think at the same time.

itk,

Instead of encouraging me, congratulating me, or thanking me, for ''fighting the good fight'', I'd rather Y'un's (That's Y'all and You Guys in Ozarkian vernacular) join me. We don't necessarily have to agree on the importance of Performance Testing for specific traits. It has often been said by the "thinkers'' of this Industry, that, "a dead calf never grows".  To emphasize a common theme of my ''rants'', and trying to put it into Terms in which the average Memeber of this Chat Community will understand, I have decided to say one thing, and, I hope I don't make anyone on here crazy, for saying this.

Hear me out.

A dead calf doesn't win ANY Buckles, Trophies, or Trailers, either.

Children get attached to their former Show Cattle, just as endeared to them as the Family Dogs, (or cats). We must do all we can to make these "Youth Projects" a "winning experience" past the "Green Shavings of Louisville". Don't lie to yourselves. A total calving nightmare, resulting in a loss of both Mama & calf (worst-case scenario) is harder on a kid than not making sift at a "Major", or third ( in a class of 3) at Saturday Jackpot Show.

"It all starts with a live calf", for BOTH sides of the "Shorthorn Feud".

GB

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

I'm not real familiar with "Jake's Proud Jazz". 

The only things that I know about him is that he has "TPS Coronet Leader 21st" in his pedigree.  I've also seen one picture of him. 

I'm just curious to know what most people like about JPJ as I am wanting to know more about this bull.  I have noticed that he seems to be quiet popular with a lot of folks. 

Thanks. 

SJ

 

[BCCC]

Well for starts he is a great calving ease bull. He throws calves with hair, bone, and Stlye from the get go

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

Well for starts he is a great calving ease bull. He throws calves with hair, bone, and Stlye from the get go

Calving ease is always a good thing.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more pictures of JPJ's progeny. 

 

[shortdawg]

2 JPJ Steer pics ( the Hereford is not a JPJ )

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

Hi Shortdawg,

Thanks for posting the pictures. 

Your steer looks really nice.  He looks really thick and smooth.  I especially like his back end. 

How well did he do in the show ring?

SJ

 

[aj]

I wonder how big jpj mother was and how was her udder?