JPJ

[frostback]

I know it has been said but I cant find it. Is JPJ clean for both TH and PHA. Also what shapes are the calves at birth. I believe more in the shape than weights. Thanks in advance.

 

[pigguy]

thf and phaf not sure about the shape they come but i think they look like a calf ;D jk  im not sure but they come easy

 

[aj]

I think I will be able to a.i. this year and I plan to use him on my PUREBRED cows. I wondered if anyone had udder reports on his daughters.Then I wondered if dna markers have been done on him for carcass stuff.I wondered if he might improve marbling being old school as he is. I think he is up to 30$ a straw.

 

[Show Heifer]

Yes, he is clean, and I will report in March, as I have several calves coming from him.

 

[shortdawg]

We are showing the one that is pictured in my posts. He has done really well for us this year - 3 Reserves, 5 classes won, and 3 - 2nd places. We've also just started showing a heifer out of a JPJ daughter that is really nice. I've seen probably near a hundred of his calves and they come ready for the showring. They have great muscle, hair, style, and soundness. I'm not sure about his carcass traits. He is THF & PHAF.

 

[Dale]

A.J., the Leader 21st part of the pedigree should be okay for udders.  We used two Thieman bulls (TPS) during the 70's and they left waaay better udders than did the (horned) Scotch Shorthorns we had previously.  Some of the Irish in his pedigree might be less desirable for udders, except JPJ's breeder is likely a good enough cattleman to keep close watch on the udders.  Reminds me when I asked a prominent Angus breeder about if he had to watch udders (his cattle have great udders), he said "all the time."  Real breeders don't put up with coke bottle teats or pendulous udders.  Some of us remember (bad memories) having short-legged cows with low udders and having to help new calf nurse (or at least clean the muck off the udder first).

 

[aj]

Good point Dale. The bad thing about using a young bull is that you don't exactly how his daughters udders will be till the daughters are 6 years old sometimes and then It is to late.

 

[pigguy]

willhe add bone, lower quarter? will he put some set to the back legs?

 

[garybob]

willhe add bone, lower quarter? will he put some set to the back legs?

There's already too much "Set" to the back legs in today's "Shorthorns". More cattle within the breed need loosened-up. Many are as tight-wound as a "stress-gene-positive" market barrow hog from twelve years ago. Them stiff-jointed cusses are ruining the breed. Period.

Bone, hair, and set to the rear leg are synonymous with TH and PHA carrier lines. Larger Bone is antagonistic toward both marbling and yield, And, as far as I'm concerned, are continuing to lead us down the path of no return.

GB

 

[pigguy]

i'm not breeding him to shorties. i have a low % maine that needs more lower quarter, and bone. I was just seeing if he would add set to the back legs because, she has plenty of that. :'(

 

[chambero]

I think the "set" he is referring to is an attempt to correct what you are saying is wrong.  Having enough "set" to the back leg is the opposite of "too straight" legged.

 

[itk]

I'll piggy back onto this thread. My question is. What kind of bull is JPJ? Is he clubby, judging from the number of high dollar steers he is siring or is he the breed changer that is adding more commercial acceptance siring red polled bulls at Jungles. Or is he a miracle bull that can do it all, kind of like Gizmo. I personally haven't used and will probally never use JPJ because I have seen to many calves out of him that simply won't grow. But I never used Gizmo either because the first daughters I saw were to clubby and that has kind of bit me in the butt.

 

[garybob]

willhe add bone, lower quarter? will he put some set to the back legs?

Didn't mean to upset you. Fact of business, I've done my fair share of  crying ,each and every time I take my Bumper-trailer "load" of slick-haired , red 'n dark roan , calves to my local Feeder Auction. Until the entire Shorthorn Breed, by and large, stops chasing the Jackpot Ribbon Show, I am a "sitting Duck", as far as Bullcrap, unjustified discounts. The buyers and traders in my area are always "arm's length away" from any change. Even beneficial ones.
What I'd like to see happen? It's very simple. We could all agree on pedigrees, "if":
1. Everybody's Show-winning heifer makes a fail-safe cow that your Elders go to the Coffee Shop & brag about, instead of Cursing every-other-syllable. All too often, the adults who finance these projects are dissappointed in the maternal Performance of these Project-hiefers. We used to be synomymous with "Cow".
2. Y'uns kick Butt'ntake names in the Carcass show after claiming the on-hoof Championship and rate-of-gain awards. Maybe, just maybe, if the Owner of your nearest Auction Yard( you know, the one who pays premiums and supports the Junior Auction every year ) keeps seeing Roan steers CONSISTENTLY win your County's Carcass show,with acceptable Gain and efficiency numbers, He might just get the hint.


Your generation is gonna be in the driver's seat. Make wise decisions.

I don't think it is at all unrealistic to tie together "show" and "grow".

Believe.

GB

 

[DLD]

I've been around plenty of JPJ's, and I guess maybe I see him a little differently than some do. He's not overwhelming in terms of bone or muscle - in fact, to me what makes him great is that he's not extreme in any area. He's sound and nicely balanced with adequate bone and muscle. His strength is his completeness, his ability to offer enough bone and muscle, enough depth and capacity, enough soundness, and enough look and balance to mate well with most anything without producing extremes (or freaks, or train wrecks - whatever you wanna call 'em). In that respect, I think comparing him to Gizmo is reasonable (though most of what I know about Gizmo is just by reputation). Yes, he is what I call moderate framed (some of you might call him small) and I imagine that part will breed pretty true. He's also very similiar in type to the popular Ohlde Angus bulls, which leads me to expect that he'll be similiar in his ability to pass along strong maternals and very good fleshing ability along with enough muscle to be very acceptable on the rail. Whether or not his epd's reflect that, I don't know.

As far as the problems of todays cattle being the fault of the "younger generation" of cattle people, I'm just not so sure that's entirely true. Some of the unsoundest, least fertile sets of cows I know of belong to people that have dang sure been around this business long enough to know better. But I do agree that it's not unreasonable to expect show cattle to be useful and practical outside the show ring as well as in.

 

[dutch pride]

But I do agree that it's not unreasonable to expect show cattle to be useful and practical outside the show ring as well as in.

I have not been around the "show cattle business" very long so I may have naive expectations. Who sets the criteria for a champion heifer or cow or bull for that matter? If a champion heifer does not make a champion cow that has all of the female qualities that everyone expects in their brood cows, why is she champion? Judges that choose these animals should not be asked to judge again. If you change the target that everyone is shooting for, you will change the type of animals that are produced and entered into those contests. IMHO, a heifer that wins a breeding cattle show but does not do what cows are meant to do (produce lots of top quality calves, economically) was a failure and should not have been named champion. For breeding cattle, the show ring should be a means to an end, not the end itself.

Again just my thoughts as an outsider getting started.

DLZ

 

[Doc]

.

Bone, hair, and set to the rear leg are synonymous with TH and PHA carrier lines. Larger Bone is antagonistic toward both marbling and yield, And, as far as I'm concerned, are continuing to lead us down the path of no return.

GB

GB, I don't know why you say that about bone , hair & set. Yes, I agree that a lot of time that a THC animal can be phenotypically stronger than it's THF flushmate, but to group all hairy cows with bone to them together & say they are likely THC & PHAC is like saying all black cows are Angus. I've seen plenty of durn good cattle that have above average hair & bone & are THF pedigree. JMHO. ;D

 

[DLD]

DLZ, I agree with you completely. And I don't think that the majority of the cattle being shown today are as "bad" as some people like to make them out to be. I've said it before - the reason some people declare all show cattle to be impractical is because they refuse to look at any of them to see what they might have to offer. Some folks just insist that all show cattle are too big or too small, too unsound, too infertile, or too something to be of any value outside the show ring, and I just simply don't think that's true. But we have to remember that cattle shows are about, well.... show cattle - what's the point if they aren't fun to look at? The key is keeping them practical while making them pretty.

GB, like Chambero said, the term "set" in reference to rear legs means the opposite of straight. Yes, some TH carriers are straight legged and hairy, but not all cattle that are straight legged and hairy are TH carriers. I'll agree that to some extent, bone is over-rated in the show ring - what we all need to be more conscious of is foot size. Bigger footed cattle are pretty much always sounder and have a more practical bone size than their smaller footed counterparts.

 

[Telos]

You're right on the money DLD, in my opinion. The showring is beneficial in teaching us what good cattle are suppose to look and be like. Thank goodness our livestock judges are becoming more savvy to all those issues you mentioned. I'm tired of those small footed rascals with the hairy round legs that look like telephone poles. The big footed flatter boned counterparts that have some flex in their pasterns and mobile are what cattle people need to select for, IMO.

 

[aj]

itk I have heard speculation that shorthorn cattle maybe don't grad as well as they did 30 years ago(possibly because of milking, and irish shorthorns, and maine genetics. If jpj is soft looking and old school genetics is there a possibility that he is a source of better marbling fleshing ability kind of stuff. If we assume the genestar deal is relevent and say jpj is a 2of 2star on marbling , I think he would be viable new germ plasm. If the softer look isn't a improvement in marbling and the old cattle graded choice because they were wasty and overfed and had to many grade 4's or whatever. I would like to know his markers for the heck of it. Fleshing ability on cows is just just a form of being wasty really. In a sawdust and sand nutritional scenario though that can be of value. I don't think it hurts to sample the old genetics. They may not work I don't know. I guess I would try jpj for that reason. He is in straws and big gene is in amps and I don't know if I could do amps. Plus leader 21 st, big gene, and old school semen is hard to find high dollar. I am not up to date on the latest genex star deal...they may have more than 2 now. And maybe its not the total answer. It is what it is and it looks like to me that jpj is old school genetics for better or worse. Just my opinion.

 

[shortdawg]

I think DLD described JPJ to a tee and I agree that his EPD'S probably don't show what he brings to the table. Seeing and owning some of his offspring definitely shows me that he will breed true to his moderate size and add a lot of spring of rib. Do I think he will work on everything, No. Do I think he will work on many different types, Yes. I think the perfect situation to use him in would be on a good Rodeo Drive daughter or on Angus & SimAngus cattle.