cookcattleco
Well-known member
2-4-3-1
Just for fun (cattle related)
- Thread starter stumpy
- Start date
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Hey Stumpy, do all of these heifers sell in the Duis sale? If so, I guess the buyers will have the final placing... A really fun group of heifers to look at--very interesting to see how different priorities make for different placings--just as in everyday cattle selection! I've got my 4th place heifer picked out, but I need to work my way up from there...as MBar said, any help with who's at the halter of each of them?!? LOL
stumpy
Well-known member
M Bar- it is a good thing for this class that you won't make the owners to mad as long as one of their calves win the class.
JIT- I could not agree with you more. Different people in different environments see them all a little different.
PLKR- Invent who you want to see on the lead, then you can match the politics (or cute girls) to the heifer!
I posted these gals because I think they all fit in somewhere and I think they have about all made it into every placeing now. It is fun to see how they fall for a variety of people. I hope that we continue to get more placings and most of all have fun with it.
-Jeff
JIT- I could not agree with you more. Different people in different environments see them all a little different.
PLKR- Invent who you want to see on the lead, then you can match the politics (or cute girls) to the heifer!
I posted these gals because I think they all fit in somewhere and I think they have about all made it into every placeing now. It is fun to see how they fall for a variety of people. I hope that we continue to get more placings and most of all have fun with it.
-Jeff
oakbar
Well-known member
I thought it would only be fair to respond without looking at the responses so I may be way off the mark from the rest of you. I would place them 1-2-3-4 and I think the top pair is very difficult. I would also really like to see a rear view of these heifers.
I really like the first heifer--at first glance I thought maybe she was a little rough out of her shoulder but I think its just the roan coloring. She seems to have the most depth in her chest floor and throughout the center of her body. She also has good thickness in her lower quarter and maintains a feminine look. I might like to see just a tick more bone and if we had a rear view she might drop down a placing or so due to thickness but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for this exercise.
The 2 heifer seems to pinch a little in the heart girth area and just didn't strike me as much as the first heifer. Having said that, she has probably the best lower quarter of the bunch and is an extremely attractive heifer. She may be a little thicker than the 1 heifer.
The 3 heifer looks a little high in her tail setting but I think she's holding her tail out somewhat compared to the others. She doesn't have the soft hair to help smooth out the profile, so what you see is what you get, but is still very level topped and deep. I think if you put some fuzzy, soft hair on this girl and lower that tail somewhat, she might jump right up to the top for most people. Might be the best cow prospect of the bunch
The 4 heifer is extremely soft looking but also could be deeper in the heart girth and may give up just a tick on bone. She just strikes me as not having quite the overall production potential as the top three. She's holding her head kind of funny and that doesn't help the overall appearance of her front half. I'd like to see her on the move.
This is a tough class!! Judging cattle from pictures is an inexact science at best, but from these pictures thats how I see them. Having said all that, I'd be happy to have any of these females in my pasture!! JMHO
I really like the first heifer--at first glance I thought maybe she was a little rough out of her shoulder but I think its just the roan coloring. She seems to have the most depth in her chest floor and throughout the center of her body. She also has good thickness in her lower quarter and maintains a feminine look. I might like to see just a tick more bone and if we had a rear view she might drop down a placing or so due to thickness but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for this exercise.
The 2 heifer seems to pinch a little in the heart girth area and just didn't strike me as much as the first heifer. Having said that, she has probably the best lower quarter of the bunch and is an extremely attractive heifer. She may be a little thicker than the 1 heifer.
The 3 heifer looks a little high in her tail setting but I think she's holding her tail out somewhat compared to the others. She doesn't have the soft hair to help smooth out the profile, so what you see is what you get, but is still very level topped and deep. I think if you put some fuzzy, soft hair on this girl and lower that tail somewhat, she might jump right up to the top for most people. Might be the best cow prospect of the bunch
The 4 heifer is extremely soft looking but also could be deeper in the heart girth and may give up just a tick on bone. She just strikes me as not having quite the overall production potential as the top three. She's holding her head kind of funny and that doesn't help the overall appearance of her front half. I'd like to see her on the move.
This is a tough class!! Judging cattle from pictures is an inexact science at best, but from these pictures thats how I see them. Having said all that, I'd be happy to have any of these females in my pasture!! JMHO
What a great idea this was! All the different responses shows just how difficult it is to breed cattle for that appeal to your customers. Breeding cattle the way YOU like them is not always the best business decision. If you like purple cattle and your customer like pink ones with green spots, even though you know in your heart of hearts purple ones are the best, it'll be tough to stay in business.
I learn lots of things here and many from JIT. Never once in my entire life have I ever heard anyone mention the jaw when placing a set . Never heard of the tail head not dropping at 90 degrees relating to fertility. Is that a thing with in the breed? Lots of clubby females here without nice tail sets and no fertility issues. Also you put alot of emphasis on the head. Although not a shorthorn breeder I think that is something the breed needs to work on especially in bulls. In this country too many are not masculine enough. I look at the Canadian cattle and that doesn't seem to be such of a problem. Another thing about the head, we have the same guys judge here that judge all over the country, same ones that judge Houston and Denver and OKC and Iowa state fair. The last few years each one of them come in here and say the same thing. "I'm going to put my emphasis on these heifers from the shoulders back." They want soundness and body. So it's interesting to me that JIT would mention someone able to tell all about a cow just from her head. It just shows that if you're trying to please customers, what ever their measure of success, show ring or performance or what ever, it's tough to breed cattle that please everyone. Everyone has a different ideal. Also it underscores how difficult it is to buy cattle from a picture.
Oh and Dakota cow is or has been on a judging team (lol)
As far as placing these calves, I'm glad to see as time went along more of you placed 3 at the top. At first I thought I was the only one that liked her. I am going to put 3 at the top because of her combination of overall power and femininity. As JIT mentioned she obviously has the best head of the group, she's much prettier there to me. Also she is the only calf who's head is turned toward the camera and not just looking straight ahead. I believe that if she were looking staright ahead she would be as long fronted as any of these heifers, there may be a tick of extra leather under her throat, but not too much for me. She appears to be the heaviest constructed of the heifers from a bone stand point and also muscling over her fore arm. I would like to see her from behind to see if she is as square as I like as sometimes these soft made, big bodied heifers are a little rounder in the top. That may be fine for many of you but for what I sell, I'd rather them be squarer made all else equal. It's impossible to tell from a flat picture, but when you turn the head to the side, you flatten that sides shoulder. I don't know if it's a shadow or the sun but it looks like if her head was pointed straight away there might be some boldness in her shoulder that is hidden by her head being turned toward the camera. That's why you don't ever want to show a calf with it's head turned away from the judge. I like that she has a little set to her legs and a good slope to her shoulder. I don't think she'd win at Louisville, but I believe she'd win here and she is the kind that I would like to have. I am wondering if JIT judged them the way he thought they would place at a big show or if he placed them how he actually liked them? Her color pattern doesn't do anything for me one way or the other.
It's the next pair that causes a problem for me. Maybe in real life it wouldn't be so difficult, but in a flat picture I see lots of things that concern me about the 1 heifer that I am going to go ahead and put 2nd. First she's just not all that pretty to me, that stuff up under her throat just throws something off as far as aesthetics for me. Her length definitely make her appear not as deep bodied as the others but I bet she is just as deep in her flank as any of my bottom 3. What my concern is, from the picture, is that she is too flat sided, not enough dimension in her rib. I am also concerned that she is too straight on her back legs for me. I like her length and I like that she appears to have more size than the others which, for me, indicates some performance which is a good thing. I'd like to know how thick she is.
At first glance, 2 was my top pick. At least when trying to place for a show. I think she's nearer to the type of calf I used for the top spot than the number 1 calf is. In the picture she appears to be bolder sprung and softer made than the the number one heifer. She's not as long in her spine and so appears a little deeper flanked, but probably not. The number one heifer has a prettier head than number two, but I like the overall appearance of this calfs front end better. Number two appears to be a little finer boned than the 3 or 1. Not fine boned, just less bone. And that may even be preferable to some. I like her set to her back legs better than the number 1. Again in person the pair could be easier to seperate.
For me 4 is an easy bottom. She appears to be the "clubbiest" of the four. I have no problem with that except that I assume this is a class of breeding shorthorn heifer and she doesn't quite fit the mix of the others. Don't you hate it when a judge says " The second place calf more closely follows the type and kind of the calf I put on top."? Usually that means there was a better combination calf somewhere down the line he didn't want to see again. It might make him look bad not to have them al llook a like while standing still. Anyway, the last calf appears to be standing with it's front feet very close together, an indication of no chest floor and it appears that carries back through it's heart. It appears that the poor transition between the shoulder and fore rib is due to a narrow heart girth more than a bold shoulder. She also appears to be just smaller than the other heifers. I like her bone and her hair. I like her long clean neck, but not her head. If I were trying to pick which one to buy not in the show ring, I'd put her last because I couldn't sell a solid red shorthorn.
Again the most interesting thing about this to me is the differences in what people like. When trying to breed something to sell to customers it's important to know what they like and what they want.
3-1-2-4 or 3-2-1-4
I learn lots of things here and many from JIT. Never once in my entire life have I ever heard anyone mention the jaw when placing a set . Never heard of the tail head not dropping at 90 degrees relating to fertility. Is that a thing with in the breed? Lots of clubby females here without nice tail sets and no fertility issues. Also you put alot of emphasis on the head. Although not a shorthorn breeder I think that is something the breed needs to work on especially in bulls. In this country too many are not masculine enough. I look at the Canadian cattle and that doesn't seem to be such of a problem. Another thing about the head, we have the same guys judge here that judge all over the country, same ones that judge Houston and Denver and OKC and Iowa state fair. The last few years each one of them come in here and say the same thing. "I'm going to put my emphasis on these heifers from the shoulders back." They want soundness and body. So it's interesting to me that JIT would mention someone able to tell all about a cow just from her head. It just shows that if you're trying to please customers, what ever their measure of success, show ring or performance or what ever, it's tough to breed cattle that please everyone. Everyone has a different ideal. Also it underscores how difficult it is to buy cattle from a picture.
Oh and Dakota cow is or has been on a judging team (lol)
As far as placing these calves, I'm glad to see as time went along more of you placed 3 at the top. At first I thought I was the only one that liked her. I am going to put 3 at the top because of her combination of overall power and femininity. As JIT mentioned she obviously has the best head of the group, she's much prettier there to me. Also she is the only calf who's head is turned toward the camera and not just looking straight ahead. I believe that if she were looking staright ahead she would be as long fronted as any of these heifers, there may be a tick of extra leather under her throat, but not too much for me. She appears to be the heaviest constructed of the heifers from a bone stand point and also muscling over her fore arm. I would like to see her from behind to see if she is as square as I like as sometimes these soft made, big bodied heifers are a little rounder in the top. That may be fine for many of you but for what I sell, I'd rather them be squarer made all else equal. It's impossible to tell from a flat picture, but when you turn the head to the side, you flatten that sides shoulder. I don't know if it's a shadow or the sun but it looks like if her head was pointed straight away there might be some boldness in her shoulder that is hidden by her head being turned toward the camera. That's why you don't ever want to show a calf with it's head turned away from the judge. I like that she has a little set to her legs and a good slope to her shoulder. I don't think she'd win at Louisville, but I believe she'd win here and she is the kind that I would like to have. I am wondering if JIT judged them the way he thought they would place at a big show or if he placed them how he actually liked them? Her color pattern doesn't do anything for me one way or the other.
It's the next pair that causes a problem for me. Maybe in real life it wouldn't be so difficult, but in a flat picture I see lots of things that concern me about the 1 heifer that I am going to go ahead and put 2nd. First she's just not all that pretty to me, that stuff up under her throat just throws something off as far as aesthetics for me. Her length definitely make her appear not as deep bodied as the others but I bet she is just as deep in her flank as any of my bottom 3. What my concern is, from the picture, is that she is too flat sided, not enough dimension in her rib. I am also concerned that she is too straight on her back legs for me. I like her length and I like that she appears to have more size than the others which, for me, indicates some performance which is a good thing. I'd like to know how thick she is.
At first glance, 2 was my top pick. At least when trying to place for a show. I think she's nearer to the type of calf I used for the top spot than the number 1 calf is. In the picture she appears to be bolder sprung and softer made than the the number one heifer. She's not as long in her spine and so appears a little deeper flanked, but probably not. The number one heifer has a prettier head than number two, but I like the overall appearance of this calfs front end better. Number two appears to be a little finer boned than the 3 or 1. Not fine boned, just less bone. And that may even be preferable to some. I like her set to her back legs better than the number 1. Again in person the pair could be easier to seperate.
For me 4 is an easy bottom. She appears to be the "clubbiest" of the four. I have no problem with that except that I assume this is a class of breeding shorthorn heifer and she doesn't quite fit the mix of the others. Don't you hate it when a judge says " The second place calf more closely follows the type and kind of the calf I put on top."? Usually that means there was a better combination calf somewhere down the line he didn't want to see again. It might make him look bad not to have them al llook a like while standing still. Anyway, the last calf appears to be standing with it's front feet very close together, an indication of no chest floor and it appears that carries back through it's heart. It appears that the poor transition between the shoulder and fore rib is due to a narrow heart girth more than a bold shoulder. She also appears to be just smaller than the other heifers. I like her bone and her hair. I like her long clean neck, but not her head. If I were trying to pick which one to buy not in the show ring, I'd put her last because I couldn't sell a solid red shorthorn.
Again the most interesting thing about this to me is the differences in what people like. When trying to breed something to sell to customers it's important to know what they like and what they want.
3-1-2-4 or 3-2-1-4
jbzdad
Well-known member
Stumpy, you know me and know I dont have a clue, I agree that 4 is last, I really like the power of 2 so will place her first ,so 2,3,1,4 for me... this has been a great learning experience for me... thank you very much to ALL who responded
OH Breeder
Well-known member
3, 1, 2, 4
3 caught my eye immediately see twin update
4 isn't all that bad but is little more masculine in her design
1 and 2 could fiip either way
3 caught my eye immediately see twin update
4 isn't all that bad but is little more masculine in her design
1 and 2 could fiip either way
justintime
Well-known member
Gonewest, I judged these heifers the way I would buy them, mind you, I may change my mind on #1 and #3 if I would walk around them and compare them for a while. If I had a few hundred thousand dollars that I did not know what to do with, I would buy all four, just to prove that # 2 and #4 will require the most management for them to ever see 5-6 years of age. To me, #1 and #3 will work for the owner more. #2 and #4 will require the owner to work for them.
I find it strange that most everyone these days is preaching easy fleshing and trouble free females, yet when it comes to selecting show females, this is often tossed aside. I am sticking with my original placing. I may not win the class, but I think my picks have the potential to generate the most dollars in their life time.... but that is just my opinion, and I am far from being an expert of anything.
I find it strange that most everyone these days is preaching easy fleshing and trouble free females, yet when it comes to selecting show females, this is often tossed aside. I am sticking with my original placing. I may not win the class, but I think my picks have the potential to generate the most dollars in their life time.... but that is just my opinion, and I am far from being an expert of anything.
Grant,
picking easy fleshing, problem free animals when they are 6 months old with a creep feeder in the pen next to the cooler room is extremely difficult. I am by no means bashing this type of management, as it has proven for years a tremendous means to sell animals, heck, I don't even know if these young heifers have ever been fed creep or been in a cooler, but it appears that they are definitely not straight out of the back 40. If you took these ladies and get them bred, and take a look next year, you just never know. If one comes up open, that gets the picks down to 3 possible heifers. If one requires assitance, C-section, or a sling, or a nurse cow, then your choices are down to 2. These girls are going to be shown by their perspective buyers and it appears that they will all have pretty impressive show statistics, but I sure ain't smart enough to figure out which one will make me the most money without studying their pedigree, and analyzing them as they grow out.
picking easy fleshing, problem free animals when they are 6 months old with a creep feeder in the pen next to the cooler room is extremely difficult. I am by no means bashing this type of management, as it has proven for years a tremendous means to sell animals, heck, I don't even know if these young heifers have ever been fed creep or been in a cooler, but it appears that they are definitely not straight out of the back 40. If you took these ladies and get them bred, and take a look next year, you just never know. If one comes up open, that gets the picks down to 3 possible heifers. If one requires assitance, C-section, or a sling, or a nurse cow, then your choices are down to 2. These girls are going to be shown by their perspective buyers and it appears that they will all have pretty impressive show statistics, but I sure ain't smart enough to figure out which one will make me the most money without studying their pedigree, and analyzing them as they grow out.
Grant the reason I asked was that you had stated that 3 would make a great cow and to me, from the picture, 1 and 3 are not nearly alike. 1 looks to be much bigger for instance. Maybe actually smaller, but just sayin in the picture she looks bigger. She also looks flatter. But I'm with you I think they should use the type that will have the best future.
jason
Well-known member
2341
You know they are all good when you get almost every imaginable combo
You know they are all good when you get almost every imaginable combo
Jill
Well-known member
GONEWEST said:
I placed them how I liked them, but I would guess #1 would have the best show career, #3 will make by far the best cow and #4 I could run heavy with in a market heifer class, I do like those clubby market types. This has been really fun, we should do this more often!
linnettejane
Well-known member
3-2-1-4 just because thats the way i like them!
Hofstatter Farms
Well-known member
so when are we going to get rear shots or pedigrees?
farmboy
Well-known member
3-2-4-1
the heifer in first has the bold rib and body capacity that the other heifers don't, i like the way she holds her head up and looks like she's enjoying being a show calf. she comes out of that shoulder and blends into that neck like butter and from the crest to the tail head carries a nice level top. she's certainly the clubbiest heifer in there but she's gonna be a heck of a cow for sure.
the heifer in second is a close second but to me she doesn't seem as powerful as the calf in first. very feminine about her head, shes got the capacity and depth, with the color pattern i can't really tell about how she is in her heart but i think she takes second easily over the remaining heifers.
the red heifer in 3rd, certainly a cool looking heifer. she seems a little more tight in the flexibility of her legs to me and you might want to extend that front end a bit more but you can tell she's got some power backin it up behind. i'd like to see her fitted up and on the move to pass any worse judgment on her but certainly a heifer with a lot of potential.
the heifer in 4th seems to me as though she lacks the power and substance of the other heifers. she's deep enough and sound enough to have some longevity to her. i like the femininity through her neck and poll. certainly another outstanding cow prospect.
the heifer in first has the bold rib and body capacity that the other heifers don't, i like the way she holds her head up and looks like she's enjoying being a show calf. she comes out of that shoulder and blends into that neck like butter and from the crest to the tail head carries a nice level top. she's certainly the clubbiest heifer in there but she's gonna be a heck of a cow for sure.
the heifer in second is a close second but to me she doesn't seem as powerful as the calf in first. very feminine about her head, shes got the capacity and depth, with the color pattern i can't really tell about how she is in her heart but i think she takes second easily over the remaining heifers.
the red heifer in 3rd, certainly a cool looking heifer. she seems a little more tight in the flexibility of her legs to me and you might want to extend that front end a bit more but you can tell she's got some power backin it up behind. i'd like to see her fitted up and on the move to pass any worse judgment on her but certainly a heifer with a lot of potential.
the heifer in 4th seems to me as though she lacks the power and substance of the other heifers. she's deep enough and sound enough to have some longevity to her. i like the femininity through her neck and poll. certainly another outstanding cow prospect.
justintime
Well-known member
M Bar said:
Troy,I will agree that picking easy fleshing trouble free animals when they are 6 months old, with a creep feeder next to the cooler room is difficult. ... but not necessarily impossible. There are some things that are not affected by feed or pampering of any kind, and most of these are structural. I will try to explain a bit of what I am meaning by this...
First of all, let me say that I am no expert, and I am only stating a few things I have noticed in a lifetime of chasing cows and more recently trying to change the shape of my cows so that they are easier fleshing and more trouble free.
(1) When I look at the cows in my herd that are the easiest fleshing females, I have noticed that they have consistently had a more prominent jaw and a wider muzzle than the harder doing females I own ( I still have some of these as well, however, overtime, they will be replaced or changed by using successive easy fleshing sires on them.) They also have a well proportioned head, with some width between the eyes, yet not excessive. It is hard to explain this without examples, however, of these four females, I think # 3 represents this the best. I just looked at the pictures of these heifers again, and while we have to remember that these are just pictures, it appears to me that # 4 has the poorest jaw and head, and #2 is poorer in this regard, than #1 and #3. I would like to stand behind #2 as well, just to see how much thickness she has in her heart and start of her rib. From this picture, I am left questioning if she has enough, which also leads me to wonder about her ease of fleshing. It may be just the picture and/ or her coloring,I am not certain.
(2) Rib shape is important, but probably not as important as chest floor width and smooth transition from the shoulder through the heart region. I think this makes perfect sense, in that the heart and lungs are two of the most important organs in the body and if they are restricted, the entire animal suffers. Ribs should spring out from the backbone and arch well out, providing lots of room for the digestive organs to work. They critters were placed on earth to eat roughages, and in order to do this the most efficiently, they need some volume through their middle. If you have a super thick topped female that is tight through the heart, she will still be a hard doing female, and she will look even worse than ones with less thickness and the same weakness in the heart area.She will look like she was built by a committee.
(3) Depth of rib is important, but let's not go overboard in seeking it. Like everything else in life, optimum is best. If you draw a horizontal line from the elbow on the front leg, that is also the bottom of the rib cage. Anything below that is not muscle, as there is only a very small layer of muscle on the bottom of the rib cage. If you have ever butchered an animal you will understand what I am referring to. We want some depth below this line, however, if it is excessive, it will lead to animals that carry too much waste, which results in excessive trimming at slaughter. Some cow calf producers will say that all that matters is whether a cow is able to stay in shape. I maintain that, yes, this is very important, however, we need to remember the end buyer as well. When I went to school, we were told that it cost 8 Xs as much to add 1 pound of fat to an animal as it did 1 lb of muscle. There is some truth to this, however, I think there are some major differences between different animal types in their ability to convert feed, into either muscle or fat. That is what we should all be trying to find, is the ones that do this the best. Another thing we need to remember is that when we try to breed animals for change in one area of the body, it usually results in changes in other areas as well.
4) the forearm I mentioned is a good place to get evidence of muscling in an animal, as is the stifle area.There is very little fat deposited in these areas so you can get a visual idea of muscling by looking at these areas, no matter how much feed an animal has had. I like to see evidence of muscling in females in both of these areas. It should not be as prominent as in a male, much the same as it shouldn't be in people ( women vs men). Muscling is usually antagonistic to maternal traits, and usually a heavy muscled female is less fertile, and milks less than females with adequate muscling. Of course there are some breed differences in this regard. If you are old enough to remember the original Limousin females that were imported from France, most of them did not look like todays Limo females. I think easy fleshing females do have to have some muscle expression, not only to stay in condition, but also to produced well muscled offspring of both sexes.
5) as I have argued on SP in previous posts, I do not believe that the only way to get efficiency in your animals is by downsizing frame. I will agree that there are many big framed inefficient cows that need to meet the kid who asks " do you want fries with that". There are also big framed cows that are extremely easy fleshing. I had a vet here a couple weeks ago to ultrasound about 75 females. We have a couple cows that will not fit in our working chute, and the vet said that they were extremely fat. He suggested that they be put on a ration where they would lose at least 200 lbs, before they calve next spring. I told him that they were on a diet all last winter, and had only had grass since spring. These two cows are huge, and they are also tanks,with tremendous thickness and depth yet they are fertile,and milk very well. As I mentioned before, one of these cows weighs in excess of 2100 lbs in normal summer rig, produced an average of 27 grade 1 embryos in 6 consecutive flushes and bred back on her first heat following the last flush. I can live with cows like this much quicker than those that look like a rail fence with a rug thrown over them. I will be the first to say, that the commercial producer does not need cows like the two cows I mentioned. I do believe that as a purebred breeder, these cows offer unique genetics that can be useful in assisting us to reach certain goals. I think it would be a travesty of we allowed unique genetics like they possess to vanish from the gene pool. We have allowed this to happen far to often in the past.
stumpy
Well-known member
I would like to thank all of you for your input, and compiments. I hope this has been a fun thing for everone. I welcome more placings and discussion. If I can when I bring our replacements in from pasture I can take a few photos and do this again. That is still a few weeks away, so in the mean time I think if anyone else wants to put together a class go for it! There is no better tool for learning, if you are new to the deal or an old salt in the cow bussiness, than evaluation and discussion. I will not place the heifers myself as they are sale cattle and I have known them since their mothers were licking them dry. Of these four I pick a new favorite dailey and although they are different, they are each designed for a specific purpose and in my typical "barn blind" fashion think they all are pretty darn good. These calves will all be offered for sale in October at Duis farms production sale. I will show pedigrees and ages in a short time, after the placings and discussion slows a bit as to not get pedigree blind on the placings. Thank-you again for making this a great time for me and hopefully a few others around the SP crew.
-Jeff
-Jeff
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