Justifying the cost of a bull?

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Doc

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As I'm in the process of looking for a new bull, I've got a question. How do you determine what you are willing to spend on one. Do you say I've got 20 cows & say it's worth $50/cow to breed them & you'll use him for 3 years, so the most you would spend is $3,000. Do you just set a flat dollar limit & see what you can get bought, no matter wether you can afford more or not? Just looking for how some other people do it. ;D
 

shortdawg

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Obama is going to spread the wealth so just go buy you a $30,000 one and check your bank acct.daily for the funds from Pennsylvania Ave. Care of the Pres.
 

kanshow

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Oh boy...   I just bought 6 new bulls to put on our commercial cows so that's what my deal is based on.     We figure added value in what we hope are better genetics & heterosis to improve feed effiency, gain, carcass, etc.    Then throw in a little more value in that I was able to purchase flushmates and a set of at least 75% brothers to keep uniformity.    Then you have salvage value when you sell the bull which has been pretty substantial.   Anyway on price..   I go with a dollar figure in mind, based on what I know market price to be and what I want to spend.  At the sales I've been to, most of the bulls have been floored & started around $1400 but would have to say the average has been $2500.      Anyway, there are several things that will make me spend more on one bull over another bull.    
 

Doc

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shortdawg said:
Obama is going to spread the wealth so just go buy you a $30,000 one and check your bank acct.daily for the funds from Pennsylvania Ave. Care of the Pres.

I tell you what Shortdawg, let's do a typical Gov't deal. You tell me what kind of bull I need, buy me a bull for $25k , pay for it , send it to me , bill the Gov't for $30k & wait for the money to come to you. That's the kind of friend I am, I'll let you make that $5k. ;)
 

kanshow

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Doc, you could just do what our old neighbor used to do..    I don't think he ever owned a bull, he knew if he had enough cows come in heat that our bull would eventually get out.    Then my dad would call & tell him our bull was out & he was coming up to get him out & ol' barnyard b. would tell Dad not to hurry because he didn't have a bull so he'd just use ours.  Kinda sounds like a Gov't deal there too...
 

farmboy

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our old bull jumped the fence 3 years in a row. we didnt care, neighbor didnt care. when he got ours bred, he would mosy on over and he would come back when he was finished
 

knabe

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i've never purchased a bull, but if i say it costs me $50/cow to breed and i only expect one bull to use ai, i say this is a bad analogy.  with ai, you can use more than one bull, when you buy the bull you don't have to feed all of them and buy all of them.  to me, this warrants a higher price for a bull if i'm doing something more than commercial.  for commercial, it's a no brainer.
 

Joe Boy

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I have neighbors that buy bulls regularly to improve their herds.  They will give $5,000 or better for these bulls.  The heifer bulls they will give $1500 to $2500.  They keep the bulls longer than 3 years and they will buy at least 3 per year.  They use to register all of their Angus but no longer.  They have a tank full of semen but do not use it any more.  I have bred some of their relatives cattle with their semen.

I have kept bulls from 5 to 10 years.  But I have kept heifer bulls only for two calf crops.  I do not know a formula for buying the bulls.  I have bought bulls from 1500 to 2500 for clean up to my AI work.  In years gone by I gave 1000 for heifer bulls and 2000 for bulls with gowth epd's.  I regulate my price on what I can afford.  I could have bought a bull for $6000 that won several shows last year and he was an ALI son, but I did not have that much extra due to the drought, but still kick myself for not buying him.
 

justintime

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I grew up hearing my grandfather saying that a commercial producer should be prepared to spend equivalent of 5 weaned steers or 8 finished steers for his next herd bull. He always said that this should also be the minimum base for a purebred breeder. That was then, and times have changed substantially. Using his formula, there would be some pretty decent bull sales around. What he said, is probably close to being true even today, however, all the costs in this business are out of whack as are the prices we get for our product.

When I was in Scotland last June, I was amazed at what they sold their commercial bulls at. I stayed with a friend who raises Shorthorns and Angus. He had a small pasture with about 8-10 yearling bulls of each breed being developed on grass. They were what I would call good commercial bulls... they were not show stoppers... however, he told me he would sell almost all of them privately off the farm before the fall was completed. I asked him what bulls like these would sell for and he said that they were priced from 5000 pounds and up.... or in dollars this was $10,000 and up.

The spring bull sale season is well under way in Western Canada, and I am a bit surprised how good they are going. Simmental sales are going wild, with several averaging over $4000. One averaged $5700 on 65 yearling bulls with 70% going to commercial producers. Consignment sales are struggling, with only the top end selling well. It seems the top bulls are selling for considerably more than normal and the more ordinary bulls are extremely hard to move. I think this will be a continuing trend.

As to what you can justify to spend on a bull, it all depends on what you plan to do with the bull. A good bull can influence your herd for your entire lifetime.If semen sales are an option, that may affect how much you wish to invest. If the bull is good enough quality, you can oftentimes sell him for a good price to another breeder once you are done with him. There seems to be a growing market for good proven bulls. In recent years, I have been able to sell a couple herd bulls for more than I paid for them originally, at 5 and 6 years old. One bull I used and resold is still going strong at 14 years of age( that is where structural soundness pays major dividends).

Doc, if you are looking for an outcross herd bull, our Sun Country group will be offering 60 bulls on April 18th. I think there are some excellent bulls in this group, and from a variety of sires. The lady who did our ultrasounding told us that this group had some of the best data she had collected over all breeds this year. We will have some pictures and data on our website in the next few days. www.horseshoecreekfarms.com
 

redwingfarm

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Just my 2 cents worth here, besides the expense of a bull you might want to consider the costs of having one vs not.
The potential costs of having a bull in my experience are as follows:  at least 1 new hay ring every year, updating your fences regularly to keep mr bull where he belongs, keeping your not ready to be bred heifers at another farm because mr bull doesn't understand "jailbait heifers" are to be left alone when they come into heat @ 9 mos of age. Always watching your back when in the pasture because you never know when mr "always well behaved" may change his ways and surprise you in a most unpleasant way(I have 1st hand experience in this twice) and finally the big problem with mr bull forgetting to put his hoof print on the calendar in the barn every time he breeds a cow, thus you will never have a clear due date to worry about.  Or worst of all having cows open because the new bull you bought turned out to be sterile, or lazy.The other side to this arguement is what is the cost of your best cow showing up open at preg check time because your AI just didn't work on her this year remember it is never the cow that you are looking for a reason to ship out that doesn't get bred AI they always seem to, it is the best cow on the lot that "surprise" isn't bred
 

Doc

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redwingfarm said:
Just my 2 cents worth here, besides the expense of a bull you might want to consider the costs of having one vs not.
The potential costs of having a bull in my experience are as follows:  at least 1 new hay ring every year, updating your fences regularly to keep mr bull where he belongs, keeping your not ready to be bred heifers at another farm because mr bull doesn't understand "jailbait heifers" are to be left alone when they come into heat @ 9 mos of age. Always watching your back when in the pasture because you never know when mr "always well behaved" may change his ways and surprise you in a most unpleasant way(I have 1st hand experience in this twice) and finally the big problem with mr bull forgetting to put his hoof print on the calendar in the barn every time he breeds a cow, thus you will never have a clear due date to worry about.  Or worst of all having cows open because the new bull you bought turned out to be sterile, or lazy.The other side to this arguement is what is the cost of your best cow showing up open at preg check time because your AI just didn't work on her this year remember it is never the cow that you are looking for a reason to ship out that doesn't get bred AI they always seem to, it is the best cow on the lot that "surprise" isn't bred

Redwing, I geuss my header is misleading. I've always have had a bull & always will. Usually had at least 2 around, just got caught with my pants down & don't even have one now. I just wondered how people determined the amount of money they spend on one. There's alot of difference in $1,500 & $15,000, sometimes in the quality & sometimes not(also in my bank account). I avg between 15 & 20 cows , do some AI & put in some eggs. But by the same token I don't want to dread the fact if they don't stick & get bred by the bull. Sorry for wrong wording on the heading!
 

chambero

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We work bulls pretty hard and they usually last us arounf 7-9 yrs. 

We average spending around $4K on them.  Good Angus bulls will cost you that much.  Much more than that and it makes us too sick when one gets hurt.
 

aj

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Commercial guys in the Nebraska sandhills will spend 5000$ on Angus bulls. There are somw awfull good feeder calves come out of this area. One question to ask might be how many cows can one bull breed? This cuts down on your cost per cow. I know back in the 70's we turned out a shorthorn bull Hubs hh Robins impact with 60 cows. He did a pretty good job covering them. If you can buy a bull and breed him to 40 or more cows a year its not so bad. Especially if you can use him for 6 years. I'm with redwingfarm on their statement. Bulls can tear up alot of stuff. And if you are not carefull they will eat alot of dollar in a year. If they work 2 months out of the year and lounge for the other 10 months it is not a bad gig. The feed costs is the biggest cost to me. You gotta run them on pastures or stalks to make it work. Boy thats not a bad gig...have sex for 2 months with 50 females then goof off for 10 months. Someone needs to call the animal right goofballs on this torture.
 

kanshow

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I agree.. it gets expensive to keep bulls around during the non breeding season.  They are hard on fences, feeders, you name it.  You have to have good fences to keep them in and you should be mindful not to run open heifers next to them.  They eat a tremendous amount.    You have to manage them in a manner that they stay sound and are ready to go to work when it is time.   

 

Dero

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I've used the theory of the value of 5 feeders puls what ever else I can afford to spend on the bull normaly  no more than an extra $3,000.  This is for the purebred side of the operation.  Yes the bull in the tank does not tear anything up and is fairly cheep to feed, but I am of the opnion if you are in this business to make a profit you must be willing to spend the money for a bull that will not only complement your herd but improve it as well.
 

justintime

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I find that most of the real commercial producers are usually more willing to pay more for a good bull, than most purebred breeders. What does this say?
 

Jill

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Most of the answers you are getting here are for a commercial bulls on a large cow herd for commercial calves, I think the operation you have falls into a little different category.  
Like you, this is one we struggle with, most of our cows are AI or embryo and I don't really care if the bull has to ever breed any of them, but the decision comes in on a bad year they get bred by the bull how much more is a calf out of a great bull worth than a calf out of an average bull, that is what the price difference comes down to.  I guess for us, we couldn't ever afford the 30k collection bull so we really couldn't justify the 15k bull for just in herd use, the last bull we bought was 5500 and he has bred 4-5 a year for 2 years, that is what I would consider the upper limit and if you can get one bought for 2-3 you would be money ahead, on the flip side, if you can afford the 30k collection bull where he could generate income while breeding your cows I would think that would be the other logical option for you.
 

aj

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I think it means most commercial herds have 100 cows and purebred herds have 10 cows.
 

redwingfarm

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justintime said:
I find that most of the real commercial producers are usually more willing to pay more for a good bull, than most purebred breeders. What does this say?
I think that most commercial guys would prefer the uniformity that a good herd bull should provide, both in growth and in closing up the calving window, while as I am a purebred breeder I would not want to take a chance on all my calves being from one bull in case he is a dud, most purebred breeders use much more AI  and and embryos to get more genitic diversity, where by commercial farm tend to want more uniformity and consistency
 
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