Keeping replacement hfrs out of first calf hfrs?

[Gargan]

What's everyone's thoughts on this? I had a well educated guy tell me that if you keep replacements out of first calvers year after year, that you are reducing the colostrum intake they get every generation.  He said that you want to keep replacements out of your older cows (4 years +) so that they get a bigger amount of colostrum at birth. Anyone seen any data on this or have any input?

 

[idalee]

Just one more example of so-called experts proving the validity of Mark Twain's famous quote.  Expression of genetic potential is not caused by colostrum intake.  Furthermore,  if you are making maximum genetic progress,  the calves from your first calf heifers will have the highest genetic potential in the herd. 

 

[aj]

I don't think that it reduce colostrum production genetically. There is data that says a calf that gets very little or no colostrum at birth will tend to have more health issues.......poorer performance in the feedlot.....a less overall economically productive life. Genetically the guys theory is wrong. Just like there was not a Biblical Noahs flood in North America 4,000 years ago. It's a hillbillies understanding of the way the world works.

 

[mbigelow]

I believe they are called educated idiot's!

 

[mark tenenbaum]

All hillbillys from West Va Raise Your hand <rock> O0

 

[Gargan]

  <rock>

 

[aj]

The more i think about this deal......it is an interesting theory. I would think that breeds would be different. Areas of the country are different. I would guess that no data on colostrum studies dealing with this scenario has been done.

 

[shortybreeder]

The more i think about this deal......it is an interesting theory. I would think that breeds would be different. Areas of the country are different. I would guess that no data on colostrum studies dealing with this scenario has been done.

Probably because it isn't worth funding. Colostrum production has a lot more to do with genetics and nutrition prior to calving than it does with how old the grandam was at the time the cow was born.
My main concern with stacking generations of replacements from 1st calf heifers would be the possibility of shrinking pelvic sizes if you're consistently using CE bulls on your heifers and not using any other sort of selection criteria to balance out this risk (pelvic measurements, culling anything that requires assistance, etc.)

 

[CRS]

I have thought about this most of the day, I think keeping replacements out of first calf heifers in most instances is ideal.  1.  Greater chance for quicker genetic improvement.  2.  Most heifers are from lighter birthweight genetics and are designed for calving ease, which should be an important trait on down the line when having subsequent calves.  There are quite a few bulls now that produce small calves, but mature animals are adequately sized and have no problem having 85 to 100 lb calves on 2nd or 3rd calves  3.  Most replacement heifers are bred to maternally oriented bulls, which have an increase in ability to mother.  Most good clubby heifers and bulls have a great maternally oriented cow on the bottom side of their pedigree.  4.  Decreased colostrum intake should only affect phenotype and not genotype as I am not aware of anything in colostrum that would alter a calf's DNA.  It does however affect the Immuno response and that calf may not perform to its genetic potential.  Most likely would be culled if its performance was below your expected performance.  To quote Carroll Wright, "Figures Lie and Liars Figure"

 

[insjockey]

I believe they are called educated idiot's!

One of my favorites is "know it all know nothing"

My mother-n-law told me that one time and always thought of it as an old wives tale.. I have kept heifers from first calf heifers and everything seems fine to me.

 

[phillse]

I personally do not like to keep replacements out of first-calf heifers.  They have not proven themselves functional in production.  I sometimes make exceptions but on the whole, I prefer one to have had 2 or 3 calves before keeping a replacement.  I may lose some genetics progress but the way I see it I also do not have to deal with as much genetic regress in fertility and functional traits.

 

[mbigelow]

Bill Jacobs once told me to pick a number say 550lbs at weaning for heifers keep all that are above and ship the rest.  Then 5 or so years down the line increase that number to 575 or 600 depending upon how well it is going.  After awhile all the poor producers will sort off.  A agree with philse most of the time the calves out of heifers dont meet the stated criteria at weaning but i keep the ones that do.  The one's i have kept seem to have worked out well.  I could see that genetically calves out of first calvers should be genetically superior yet because of the harshness of raising a firts calf on a cow they never quite produce as well as your middle aged females.  This in turn woul suggest that while these calve may have the genetice the environment (i.e. the mothers lesser production) the never achieve their full potential. 

 

[aj]

I like Bill Jacobs theory. I personally keep the best of what ever I see in the pen. My best is currently not usually the biggest anyway as my top priority has been to reduce cow size and birth weights. I have bred some rate of gain performance out of the cattle and I need to lean towards pushing the rate of gain envelope again. My theory is start with genetics that fit my environment.....and then proceed from there. I personally don't believe that a maternal breed needs 1600 pound cows. However the Angus boys are selling the hell out of the high growth rate cattle resulting in 1500 cows. So as insjockey said. I know nothing. Grin bahahahahahah