Line 1 Herford type deal

[oakview]

True, beef and dairy types were all recorded in the same herd book until 1948.  AMSS cattle that traced to that herd book were allowed back in the ASA book in 1972.  I was referring to the fact that Leader 21, etc., did not contain any of those cattle in their pedigree.  However, prior to 1948, there were two distinct types of Shorthorns.  Beef and dairy.  Along with some that considered themselves dual purpose.  You'd have a hard time arguing that Leader 21st and any of his 4 or 5 generation ancestors, at least, would be anything but beef type.  His pedigree is absolutely loaded with Scotch type Shorthorns, many of whom were imported directly from Scotland.  Any reference to Leader 21st as having Milking Shorthorn ancestry because of what happened in the 1800's would be like calling today's Angus Holsteins or Maine Anjou because they have Bootmaker or Capone in their ancestry.  Most experienced Shorthorn breeders in this part of the country at least associate the bug eyes with the old line Polled Shorthorns, not the Milking Shorthorns.  I suppose there may have been some lines that appeared that way, but the common lines used in the middle west, Columbus, Clark, Lancer, Foxdale Favorite Robin, Canadian Image, were generally not bug eyed.  At any rate, I don't think it is accurate to say that all cattlemen associate bug eyes with dairy cattle, bug eyes are a trait of polled cattle, or that Leader 21st in any way, shape, or form was a product of Milking Shorthorn genetics.

 

[RyanChandler]

Are you familiar with a dairy breed that doesn't have bulging eyes?

 

[Duncraggan]

Another reason not to stray too far from horned Shorthorn genetics?

 

[aj]

I know the polled Herford and horned Herford people used to go to war against each other here. Now I think its one organization. I think a dose of horned genetics never hurt anybody. Look what it did for the Angus in the 1980's....oh lord forgive me. ;D

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Kit travels the world......he sees alot of different enviroments. I got the impression that he was building on other scientist publications. The surface has just been scratched here. I don't think he is thye only one one working on this stuff. So far it's hunches and trying to study the deal. I live only 100 miles from Kit and my brother has used some his bulls and semen.......so I may biased.

Yea, I'm not bashing the guy. He bashes everyone else's cattle so if you want to go there fine. His theory is smaller cows have denser hair coats. His theory comes from a U of Arkansas guy who did a study on fly resistance. Kit claims he is the only seed stock guy who measures for fly resistance.

He feels there is a correlation between smaller cows and fly resistance. I'm not sure I agree with that but lets let the smart guys figure that out. I've seen some Pharo cattle here in Ohio. They were ok. Little but calves were growing. Bulls looked a bit rough. The guy was happy so who cares. Just my opinion.

 

[oakview]

My definition of bulging (bug) eyes and yours must be two different things.  The eyes with the dairy cattle I'm familiar with are entirely different that the eyes that I associate with the cattle we had in the late 60's and 70's. 

 

[Okotoks]

What do you mean 'no milking shorthorn' in them? The assoc hadnt even been split but about 15years when the 21st was born.

T P S Coronet Leader 21st was the result of crossing horned scotch breeding with polled beef breeding for several generations. He has some famous polled ancestors but most have Scotch crosses. He was not homozygous polled. By the time the association split there had been very little interbreeding of types for several generations. The breeders concentrating on milk wanted to use bulls from proven milk performance lines and the beef type had been selecting the smaller blockier type. There were of course exceptions but the fashion for Scotch pedigrees in the 30's, 40's 50's was very similar to the current day one for the Maine crosses, both driven by the show ring. The original Scotch shorthorns were developed to produce beef in rugged conditions which they did well. The Whitehall Sultan bull and his descendants (like Avondale and Browndale) were the dominant winning strain in the US and Canada in the teens, 20's, 30's and were again mostly used on beef strains and were also crossed on the poll animals of the day. (the polled linebred double registered Haumont breeding carries Whitehall Sultan linebreeding)

 

[knabe]

He feels there is a correlation between smaller cows and fly resistance.

so what do i do with my larger cows that have no flies compared to the smaller ones?

 

[aj]

Knabe........I know an old man. 79 years old. He's been my hero since I guess I was three years old. He don't say a whole lot. He was born in the 1930's in a sodhouse. He was admitted to a hospital for the first time 2 years ago. I hear he was half the the man my grandad Hoyt was. I imagine that you will do what you want to do. But there have been a heck of alot of cattle people who haven't even seen a cattle show past the county fair level. Damn good breeders of cattle. There is sound......a sound that says someone can't hit the curve ball......so to speak. I would imagine that you will keep the cow.......and make fun of people who deal in  realities. Half the people commenting on this board will be sacking groceries in 10 years. Nothing wrong with that......I'm just saying......the academics will beat kit to death.....I don't like his bible beating ways.....but how many people have principles.....and stick with them? I'm just saying......

 

[Aussie]

AJ you might be interested in this article about the highline and lowline experiment run in Australia over many years. Sort of fits in to this thread. Also debunks miths. http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/8566/Parnell94.PDF?sequence=1

 

[knabe]

Knabe.......how many people have principles.....and stick with them? I'm just saying......

Gotta say that the perspective of failing to disprove is a more defendable principle as opposed  the opposite. It's what science is based on. Just saying.

 

[r.n.reed]

It may have been long forgotten but it is no secret to those that want to do the research that the Polled Shorthorn branch of the breed was founded on the Bates strain which was a dual purpose type animal.These polled cattle were crossed on horned shorthorn cattle and as Okotoks stated bulls like Whitehall Sultan who happened to be 1/2 Bates breeding were used to continue to improve the breed.
The Polled milking branch of the breed of course descended from this foundation as well and from what I have seen of the old pictures there was not a marked difference between the segments until  about 1940 when the beef guys made a right hand turn to the ponies.
When I started in the early 70's the polled beef Shorthorns had on the average a little more size than the horned segment and I would attribute that to the fact that they had to keep a link to the old strains to keep the polled heads.
Whether it was a stroke of genius and forsight or luck of the draw Leader 21 was a unique individual in type and pedigree.He actually had very little Thieman breeding and was pretty much what I would call a combination of purchased animals.In the 5th generation he traced no less than 10 times And I'm thinking it was 14 times to Whithall Sultan and many of those were on the old foundation stock.
In light of the fact that Leader 21 is now having  a major resurgence in the breed this becomes pertinent information.A few years ago I had a bull who was a TH carrier where the culprit was 5 or 6 generations back and had been bred clean for all those generations.It pays to know whats in the pedigree.
One more thought,The first Polled Shorthorn bull King of Kine was inbred to the Bates WILDEYES strain.Did Bates see something different in the eyes of these cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

Great stuff, Gary! I can't speak for Bates, but I'm certain I do.

If I'm interpreting you correctly- the 21st does in fact have dual purpose milking shorthorn blood in him.

 

[r.n.reed]

There is some for sure I could not tell you the percentage.The Sultan was promoted as a Scotch bull the pedigree said otherwise.Some things never change.

 

[oakview]

You can use this line of reasoning if you want to.  If Leader 21st has what you want to call Milking Shorthorn blood in him since all Shorthorns, beef and dairy, used to be in the same herd book, I don't care.  By the same token, then, you must say all Milking Shorthorns have beef Shorthorn blood in them.  Whitehall Sultan would appear somewhere in the ancestry of both.  Use your logic how you seem fit.  My point is that for many generations, Leader 21st's ancestors were selected for the Scotch, or small framed, beefier, type.  His pedigree for several generations is filled with a type not suited for the dairy parlor.  I would call Whitehall Sultan a true dual purpose judging from the photos of him I have seen.  He does not closely resemble either the type I think of as a Milking Shorthorn or the type that I consider Scotch, or beef.  Through selective breeding over many years, some of his descendants may have ended up in the dairy barn and some in the beef barn.  This is far from unique in the history of cattle genetics.  I'm sure more than a few Angus bulls appear in the ancestry of both large and small framed cattle.  It just depends on the breeding decisions made down the line.  Shorthorns were just one of the very few that split into two separate, unique registries.     

 

[r.n.reed]

I agree that Leader 21 was indeed bred for beef production for many years and could not even remotely be confused as a milking bull.I do stand by the facts as recorded though that he has strong ties back to the original polled foundation which was considered dual at that time. I also will say that the Polled dual breeders bred for an ideal quite similar to the beef breeders up until about 1940 and you would be hard pressed to tell whether a bull came out of the Hultine herd or Clarence Forgeys Meadowbrook herd.I would also point out that the Polled dual breeders were doing steer feedouts and comparing carcass data back in the 1950's when the beef segment in general was still making them smaller to win shows.

 

[oakview]

Back in those days when we were using a little of the dual blood, I sure did like some of those polled cattle you referred to.  Several breeders in Nebraska and Kansas had some good ones, too.  As has been mentioned on here earlier, some of them even made it to the beef herd book under assumed names!  I googled dual purpose shorthorns last night and found several breeders still raising them.  Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th x seems to be a popular bull even today.  I got on the AMSS web site and even though the true dairy Shorthorns of the 70's looked far different than what we wanted back then, they have continued to breed for a very distinct dairy type and are far removed from what I remember from 40 years ago.  Specialization will do that, I suppose.  Enjoy the discussion.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Knabe........I know an old man. 79 years old. He's been my hero since I guess I was three years old. He don't say a whole lot. He was born in the 1930's in a sodhouse. He was admitted to a hospital for the first time 2 years ago. I hear he was half the the man my grandad Hoyt was. I imagine that you will do what you want to do. But there have been a heck of alot of cattle people who haven't even seen a cattle show past the county fair level. Damn good breeders of cattle. There is sound......a sound that says someone can't hit the curve ball......so to speak. I would imagine that you will keep the cow.......and make fun of people who deal in  realities. Half the people commenting on this board will be sacking groceries in 10 years. Nothing wrong with that......I'm just saying......the academics will beat kit to death.....I don't like his bible beating ways.....but how many people have principles.....and stick with them? I'm just saying......

aj,

I like a lot of your ponderings to make a more efficient beef animal.  I tend to think that the science of genetics along with appropriate environmental pressures will get us further quicker, than solely selection through generations.

I'm not knocking a program or person, but I don't think anyone should be allowed to spread assumptions as the gospel and be free from questioning.  If we remove questioning, then we remove the basis of all knowledge.  Anyone afraid of being questioned scares me, especially when money is changing hands. 

There is such a thing as a good promoter.  A good promoter and good product are not always the same.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Bingo.

 

[r.n.reed]

A couple more thoughts of mine on some of the things discussed on this topic.First let me preface them by saying I haven't been to the county fair in at least 5 years although my wife judged the cat show 2years in a row and one of my pastures is just down the road from the fairgrounds. I do not want to bag groceries.                       
First on linebreeding you better like what you have along the way or get rid of it because it will show up again if you continue with the line even with outcrosses added in.
On the fly thing,I live in the fly capital of the US and have seen a dramatic difference on the amount of flies on particular cows and cow size is not a determinant at least with my genetics.I wish I would have kept notes to see if it is generational.
Finally a note of interest on my last post above,there are relatives of the Hultines who have started a herd of Shorthorns near Hastings Nebraska and they are using Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th.