Linebreeding question

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

I have known of folks who have bred a bull back to his mother before, and have ended up producing a really cracker jack animal. 

I was wondering if there are any folks on here who have ever bred a bull to his full sister before.  If so how did it work out for ya?

 

[knabe]

give truline maines a call.

if you look at their for sale page, you can see a few animals where they keep going back on their foundation cows and their offspring with bouncer

here's one example

http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/pedigree.asp?RegNo=363263


you can see pics of the females here.

http://www.trulinemaines.com/females.html

call the breeder/owner of reflector and look up his pedigrees.

personally, i would do half sibs first, either making the cow different or the bull.  my preference is the cow, that way you can combine them quickly, a bull is around for a long time in the form of semen.

 

[oakbar]

We used to linebreed horses as did many of the horse breeders we knew then.  Some of the offspring were very good and others were very average to really poor.
One line of horses  consistently produced national champion halter horses, however, many of them were deaf by the time they were 4-5 years old.  Not a big thing to some but not exactly desirable.  They also have a genetic defect know as HYPP that caused the death of a lot of really expensive halter horses.

Any time you breed genetics that are v ery similar together you will exponentially mulitply the genes present-- good and bad.  The scary thing to me are the genes that don't show up in the phenotype(physical appearance or traits) of the animal so we don't know they're even there.  Many of the undesirable traits we cope with today were caused by just such matings that produced outstanding looking (possibly even extreme in some cases)animals that were hiding undesirable traits we couldn't see but became very apparent in future generations.

 

[showgirl2010]

Some of the major herd sires in the Salers breed are linebred.  Me and my dad was talking about while ago.  We were talking about how it used to be such a negative thing.  Like most linebred calves would be scrawny and lacking growth.  But it is really a good thing today.  That is if there are good genetics there.  I know we have had a few and will have a few more next year. 

Just remembered, we have had a cow breed to her brother.  It was by accident she was headed to market and then we realized she was calvey so we kept her.  Had her calf marked as a gonner.  Now we are keeping him to use on our commericals.  He also placed really well in his classes this year.

Jamie

 

[simtal]

In the angus breed, sinclairs/N-bar have been successful in linebreeding.  Ext (linebred emulation 31), not to mention all the linebred ext sons

 

[Doc]

  Just remember, If it works it's Linebreeding! If it doesn't work it's Inbreeding! ;D

 

[showgirl2010]

   Just remember, If it works it's Linebreeding! If it doesn't work it's Inbreeding! ;D

Right Doc.  I knew there was another word.  We've been having such good fortune (sp?) that I have forgot about the term inbreeding.

Jamie

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

  Just remember, If it works it's Linebreeding! If it doesn't work it's Inbreeding! ;D

I hear ya there Doc! 

I'm sure you've noticed that when it comes to the Irish Shorthorns, Deerpark Leader works really well when it comes to line breeding. 

 

[shortdawg]

My linebreeding experiment is in the Clemson Sale. A Trump/Gold Rose bred to a Trump/Desert Rose and the calf  has been sexed a heifer. Like Doc said, I'll either be a genius or a freak.

 

[justintime]

I have attached a picture of a heifer I have that is the result of a son bred back on his mother.This was an accidental breeding and the resulting heifer is an excellent female.

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

I have attached a picture of a heifer I have that is the result of a son bred back on his mother.This was an accidental breeding and the resulting heifer is an excellent female.

JIT,

I've been meaning to ask you about the Leroy daughter out of Sparkle. 

I think Roan Delight looks just like her mother, except she is a darker roan.  I would definitely keep Roan Delight around as a future donor cow. 

 

[aj]

I have calves on the ground that are a half sib mating. No problems except they are spotted. Linebreeding is a great way to test for genetic problems. We once had a daughter-sire mating that was a pud. The inbred deals are usually either puds or great ones i have heard. Ohlde linebreeds. I wish I could find a jpj son(red,80# bw) out of a half (old style beef cow) for my next herd bull.

 

[knabe]

They also have a genetic defect know as HYPP that caused the death of a lot of really expensive halter horses.

Any time you breed genetics that are v ery similar together you will exponentially mulitply the genes present-- good and bad. 

The scary thing to me are the genes that don't show up in the phenotype(physical appearance or traits) of the animal so we don't know they're even there. 

Many of the undesirable traits we cope with today were caused by just such matings that produced outstanding looking (possibly even extreme in some cases)animals that were hiding undesirable traits we couldn't see but became very apparent in future generations.

i'll quibble a little bit here.  if they linebred impressive, they would have found out a lot quicker about hypp.  same with herda.

i personally would rather breed to linebred animals, as this maximizes visualization of hidden genes quicker, and if culled, is much faster to get rid of them rather than creating ladies in waiting.  linebreeding used to be somewhat routine by design.  nowadays, it's almost unavoidable to breed closely not by design, as those heatwave females accumulate.

it's true that many undesirable traits we cope with today are a reuslt of "such matings".  linebreeding will be the fastest way to get rid of undesirable traits completely from the gene pool, other than genetic screening.

here's a subset of my ideall starter herd for purebred maines which i didnt' do, but wish i had.

daine's copenhagen
daine's rasmis
daine's icon
magic
smithbuilt
energizer
thriller
metric

they all have issues, but linebreeding seems to have moderated them in some very outstanding individuals.  i guess that's a lot of individuals for linebreeding, but they do have a theme, and not necessarily the touchstone.  i would like to see a lot more half sib matings in the maine breed.  probably one of the faster ways to get consistency, but not necessarily dramatic progress.

 

[oakbar]

Go for it , Knabe!!

I didn't say linebreeding wasn't an effective breeding tool.  What I meant was that if you're a novice and don't understand that "not everything is on the surface" when it comes to genetics you can be sorely dissapointed.  In the long term, you're right, it would purify and sort out the bad genes faster.  That's hard to remember when you have to euthanize 30% of your calf crop because of a genetic defect.  I don't know about your financial situation--but mine had a hard time handling that kind of setback.  Sorting out those bad genes will be most likely be expensive to someone--I would just as soon it not be a novice that's writing a thread on this board looking for advice.  If I'm not mistaken, I think that's where this whole discussion started.

By the way, Keep your avatar a good distance from mine too!!  Ha,Ha!!

 

[shortyisqueen]

Some of the other Hereford breeders on this board would probably be able to fill in the details a bit better than me (mine are a little fuzzy), but at one time, the Herefords had what was called a Superior Sire program, where a bull was bred back to a large group of his daughters (50 i think) to see if any genetic defects arose. If none were found, the bull was deemed a Superior Sire. Not many of these linebreeding matings actually verified a Superior Sire, but one that was verified was the original CL L1 Domino 15G...who is now found a massive number of Hereford pedigrees, usually multiple times......so...I suppose you could get lucky!!

We've bred half brothers and sisters together, and haven't had any bad results so far...

 

[kanshow]

Linebreeding is a pretty effective tool in getting predictability and setting your type.    With the show dogs, it's almost all linebreeding and even an outcross is usually not a complete outcross.   I'll have to go back and look up what is considered the 'magic equation' in linebreeding. 

Here it is...

"Let the sire of the sire become the grand sire on the dam's side". Said another way, “ let the father's father become the mothers grandfather”.

 

[clifflem]

We have linebred Shorthorns for several years.  You just have to know what your cattle are and that they don't have any major genetic problems.  The Deerpark Leaders and some of the old dual lines work well with this type of breeding program.  Look at the pedigrees of the Hub's cattle or Wayne McKee's cattle.  They are linebred and have been for several generations.  You just have to cull very hard and just use the best ones to continue a linebreeding program.  We have used father-daughter, mother-son, and half brother-sister matings with success. 
Just remember, you will magnify the bad as well as the good traits.

 

[Bawndoh]

Look we can all admit we have a ton of barn cats that get it on with their own mothers, sons, etc.  I have never once seen a "weirdo" barn cat!! 
On another note, the Charolais breed used to do a lot of father/daughter matings in order to eliminate genetic defects.  Perhaps this could work for TH/PHA...?

 

[red]

Look we can all admit we have a ton of barn cats that get it on with their own mothers, sons, etc.  I have never once seen a "weirdo" barn cat!! 
On another note, the Charolais breed used to do a lot of father/daughter matings in order to eliminate genetic defects.  Perhaps this could work for TH/PHA...?

humm... you never met King Killer Kitty then! way too much inbreeding!!!! 

 

[NHR]

Red, that is hillarious.


I think we need to make a distinct difference between Inbreeding and Line breeding. Inbreeding is the breeding of directly related animals (mother-son, brother-sister, father-daughter) where is line breeding is the breeding of animals with generation gaps of common ancestors. The Shorthorn breed has utilized line breeding effectively over its history, the art to line breeding is to introduce superior outcross genetics every third or fourth generation. The result of the outcross might not be the showstopper animal but the next individual born back into the line breeding can be lights out awesome. This is documented throughout the Shorthorn herd books. I dont like inbreeding that much in my herd. I really like the line breeding though.