Linebreeding question

[DL]

Look we can all admit we have a ton of barn cats that get it on with their own mothers, sons, etc.  I have never once seen a "weirdo" barn cat!! 
On another note, the Charolais breed used to do a lot of father/daughter matings in order to eliminate genetic defects.  Perhaps this could work for TH/PHA...?

Actually there is no reason to do that with TH and PHA because there is a genetic test that can identify the mutation - we don't need to breed potential carriers to carriers when we can just test them. This type of test mating was done a lot in the past to identify carriers - ie TH carriers in Galloways, dwarfs in Herefords etc - they are test mating now in Oz for FCS

The Angus Assn uses father daughter matings to identify "defect free" sires - this was used in the past to identify carriers and noncarriers of recessive traits for which there is no test - apparently if you breed the father to 36 daughters and do not identify the defect in the offspring he is described as clean of the trait - not sure how they came up with 36 - probably higher math and probability and knabe can explain it

Bawndoh the Weirdo barn cats know you are looking and only come out at night

 

[knabe]

a rule of thumb which i can't reproduce anymore, is that if you have a normal distribution, you can get away with a sample set of less than 30.  if it's not normal, then you need a bigger size.  36 was probably some number that stat professor came up with as a comprimise between breeding an infinite number of animals to satisfy the conspiracy theorists, and people who knew you can never get a normal distribution with anything, but were pragmatic, and came up with 36.  if i remember right, you get past a degree of freedom by choosing 36 instead of 35.  it's kinda for impact, similar to pricing something at 2.99 instead of 3.00.  it's a threshold on a scale, and humans are more comfortable with a scale with a threshold than they are the difference between 2.97 and 2.99.

the more indivduals you use, the more closely the sample population resembles the total population.

you could use what's called the Student t Distribution, and reproduce it by hand on an excel sheet just for kicks, and you would learn about confidence interval and all kinds of stuff you will immediately forget, but still remember, it's statiscally possible to mate two carriers of anything and come up with 36 straight clean individuals.  this is basically how biotechnology works.  they look for that one oddball combination of the right stuff out of millions of interractions with the right selective constraints, and pretty soon you have a lawn of bacteria.  it's why you shouldn't use antibiotic soap for routine cleaning.  you are basically selecting for eventual antibiotic resistant bacteria.

i would call smokin joe linebreeding, breeding for polled energizer, since one thought ali was great, breed him to an energizer daughter you thought filled some holes in ali.  which is cool, cause you still get another smithbuilt without energizer by doing this, yet in a moderated frame size, fixing the moderation even more.  interesting black gold is in there too.  not only that, but PTR EPIC 83E as well, and universe 15 whose in there at least twice.  another example of potentially good bulls from pha lines.

http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/pedigree.asp?RegNo=337244

 

[Jill]

Look we can all admit we have a ton of barn cats that get it on with their own mothers, sons, etc.  I have never once seen a "weirdo" barn cat!! 
On another note, the Charolais breed used to do a lot of father/daughter matings in order to eliminate genetic defects.  Perhaps this could work for TH/PHA...?

humm... you never met King Killer Kitty then! way too much inbreeding!!!! 

SCARY!

 

[JbarL]

ok...i have a set of twins...they calved jan 7 and 17(  ist calf heifers)...same sire.....one is heifer  one is bull......would the  product of that be toward the linebreed side or the inbreed side....1/2 sib  paternal.....1/2 double maternal???????  thanks  jbarl........

 

[NHR]

ok...i have a set of twins...they calved jan 7 and 17(  ist calf heifers)...same sire.....one is heifer  one is bull......would the  product of that be toward the linebreed side or the inbreed side....1/2 sib  paternal.....1/2 double maternal???????  thanks  jbarl........

That would be inbreeding because the blood relation. Breed the heifer to different bull and get another heifer and then breed back to the bull of the twin and that would be more of line bred. Just my opinion.

 

[JbarL]

thanks....wasnt sure how that would make them.... in or out of line. ....thanks  jbarl

 

[oakbar]

NHR--I think you're right on or as they say in Great Britain--spot on-- in your intrepretation of inbreeding versus linebreeding.  I  really don't like breeding fathers to daughters or mothers to sons.    One generation out I'm a lot more comfortable---but that's just me!! 

 

[shorthorns r us]

36 is the smallest number that results in an possible error that falls in the 3rd standard deviation.

 

[Dusty]

red, no offense, but your cat looks like it needs to see an exorcist...

 

[ELBEE]

Here's a brief history of the line\inbreeding program for the last 50+ years at ELBEE.

Deerpark Improver 3rd (a "true" foundation Irish born sire) was mated with females bred down from "T P S Coronet Max Leader 2cnd" (a 3\4+ sib to Leader 21st's sire), these females already lined back to other sires such as "Leader 21st", "Leader 9th", and "Small Flower Leader 2cnd". Out of these "foundation" cows 2 bulls rose to the top "ELBEE Improved Leader" (Gizmo's sire) and "ELBEE Influence 81". These 2 lines are still being inter-twined in a figure-8 pattern today. We also inject back in "Deerpark Improver 3rd", and "Smallflower Leader 2cnd", occasionally.

At one time in the70's, my father in-bred "Deerpark Improver 3rd" 5 generations to daughter\grand-daughters. Obviously no TH or PHA, only horns and white hides. 

 

[knabe]

36 is the smallest number that results in an possible error that falls in the 3rd standard deviation.

isn't it to the right of the standard deviation? i thought 35 was to the left.

 

[knabe]

ok , here's more info than one needs

http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

from

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding.htm

In out crossing one is mixing the bloodlines of different strains and consequently unwanted recessive characteristics are likely to be brought in. Very often novice breeders present the pedigree of their outcross-bred bitch to me, asking for advice about breeding her. Such a pedigree cannot be evaluated properly because it is impossible to know the genetic makeup of such an animal.

When either of the latter are attempted, make certain to select as near faultless foundation stock as it is possible to get, and cull relentlessly, never mating together two dogs with similar faults.

The origin of the human family is mysterious, but history has given us certain examples of consanguinity.

We have read of an old Syrian tribesman named Terati who had three sons and a daughter named respectively Nahor, Haran, Abram and Sarai, by different wives. Contrary to modern custom, the two latter (half brother and sister) married, and their son married Nahor’s granddaughter who was twice his first cousin, once removed, and they were known as Isaac and Rebekah. Their son Jacob married his two first cousins (great-granddaughters of Nahor, Terah’s son) and had eight sons, who became the founders of the most persistently influential nation in human history, the ever-miraculous Jewish race.

Eight of the twelve founders of tribes have each four separate crosses to Terah, and they passed a law to establish their tradition that their children should not marry into strange families, which law survives in essence today. Of the many charges brought against the Jews in all of history, nobody has ever levied, or even heard, that of degeneracy.

this last quote is detailed rather relentlessly in jim lent's book "the basics of linebreeding"

 

[shorthorns r us]

36 is the smallest number that results in an possible error that falls in the 3rd standard deviation.

isn't it to the right of the standard deviation? i thought 35 was to the left.

poor phrasing.  36 falls beyond the 3rd sd

 

[uluru]

Last year I had a cow bred back to her son.
She dumped the calf for no apparent reason early in the pregnancy.
I suggest it was natures way of saying it was a no no.

 

[RSC]

The Sire of my Angus donor Patty(Pictured below) is out of OCC Judge, Pedigree below.  Judge is a Full Brother/Sister mating.  We have had  3 PB Maine calves out of a Mother/Son mating and that worked real well for the most part.

OCC Judge 679J
Reg. No. 13509909 • Calved 3-3-1999

Check back for picture!


        DHD Traveler 6807
OCC Emblazon 854E  (Sire)
          Dixie Erica of C H 1019
          DHD Traveler 6807
OCC Dixie Erica 816B (Dam)
          Dixie Erica of CH 1019


Expected Progeny Differences  Production  Maternal 
CED
Acc  BW
Acc  WW
Acc  YW
Acc  YH
Acc  SC
Acc  CEM
Acc  Milk
Acc MkH
MkD  MW
Acc  MH
Acc  $EN
 
+10
.51  +1.6
.75  +43
.76  +75
.67  I -.8
.05  -.17
.55  +2
.35  +9
.61  13
32  -17
.32  -.6
.28  +19.47 

Carcass  Ultrasound 
Cwt
Acc  Mrb
Acc  RE
Acc  Fat
Acc  Grp
Prog  %IMF
Acc  RE
Acc  Fat
Acc  Grp
Prog 
I -2
.05  I +.09
.05  I +.26
.05  I -.026
.05 
  -.10
.66  +.33
.66  +.011
.66  27
53 

$Values 
$W  $F  $G  $QG  $YG  $B 
+27.82  +17.59  +6.88  +1.23  +5.65  +23.23 

RSC