Maternal traits Marellan Super Dazzler

[librarian]

Hi Guys,
I am trying to learn about the maternal traits of Marellan Super Dazzler. I saw this photo of a MSD daughter in a 2010 post and it rings true to some of the things I see in my cows that trace to Super Dazzler thru Dream Weaver and my bull Amos.
I would like feedback on the udders, constitution, feet and legs, and frame size of super Dazzler Daughters. Was he a large bull?  My cows are very moderate.
I am wondering especially if these nice udders come from him.
The last three are pictures of my cows.

 

[librarian]

And this is Amos (Super Dazzler grandson) and a 2013 Amos bull calf out of a Leah's Legacy (Super Dazzler son) daughter.  I like the male progeny fine.

 

[librarian]

I am asking because if I put Coalpit Creek Leader 6th on these females, it will put in more Super Dazzler and Dream Weaver thru Impossible Dream (CCL 6th dam).  I want to know what I am line breeding to before I get in any deeper.
Thanks for any thoughts you have.

 

[Okotoks]

We saw a group of Coalpit Creek Leader 6th daughters at Ralph Larson's Y Lazy Y this spring and they were impressive females with beautiful udders. A very uniform group.
We also had a Marrellan Super Dazzler son that left us some good cows. They had good udders but so did the dam of the bull. They were good sized cows and very deep bodied. On both the Australian and US sites Dazzler is slightly beow breed average for milk and the Australian figures have 98% accuracy.

 

[librarian]

Thanks.  I am 100% forage fed, so a lower milk number usually goes along with higher $EN.  So that's okay.  Longevity is important to me as well as attentiveness.

Not quite related, but I got into Scotch type shorthorns with the idea of making old style blue roans using older Angus genetics. (like Wye or Wye blends).  I have put my white bull on several Angus cows and every time get the same blackish animal with a white underline.  Is this the bull, or just what usually happens with the first cross?  They all look just like this.

 

[librarian]

Have you seen other females from Leader bulls?  How about those Jake's bulls?  I was wondering about using Jakes Touch of Jazz after CCL6th, but I don't know about all those asterix.  I am trying to stay away from the newer, bigger, bloodlines.  Is Jacob Ohlde trying to make a linebred Leader 21st strain to complement the Ohlde Angus or does he just like Shorthorns?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I have no knowledge of dazzler but I must say I really like what your doing and what your thinking. I say go for it and see what happens. You will be well on your way IMO.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Welcome Librarian!

I really like your Amos bull!  Nice, moderate,deep with guts.  Where are you located?  Does your Amos bull have a good disposition? 
I think you are right on with your forage program using the Super Dazzler lines.  I really appreciate the pictures of your cows and they look fine-- good udders and moderate size. 
I also really appreciate your blue roan program.  The pic of the female you posted looks like she will be perfect for a forage system and make good mama cows.  No fluff, just working cows.

EF

 

[librarian]

Amos has a really quiet disposition.  I am around him all the time and he is very gentle with humans and other cattle.  His feet are super good.
He is working well for grass-fed. This in upstate NY in the Finger Lakes region.  We have lots of grass, but it has has a high water content; not as nutritious as Western grass.  I am on top of a hill between the lakes and the soil is not great.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Man- I wish you were closer to Iowa!  When you are done with Amos, I would have been interested in using him! I think the transportation logistics would be prohibitive at this point.
Keep doing what you are doing-- it appears to be working in your part of the country and the cattle are acclimated to your environment.
EF

 

[OH Breeder]

I have been using a son of Prince of Jazz(sire of Touch of Jazz). 4174263. My bull some of the same females as Touch of Jazz. His females are just now coming into production. My cross on Simmi angus cows has been excellent. Deeper made softer sided. Very moderate. We had our first group of fats this year and they were easy feeding and covered well. Most of his steers were in the 1250 range and 50-51 hip height. We have not touched one calving and they were very vigorous at birth.

Attached are two females out of my bull

first one is out of Bakenhus female
second is a smoke- Clubbier bred female

 

[librarian]

Thanks for the input, and the kind words for Amos (HHFS Amos).  He is kind of special because his sire is a bull from the 60's. The bad part of that is there is no point of reference I know of for what the contribution from that sire, Remitall Choice Mint, is. Amos is such an extreme outcross that it's hard to sort out the heterosis from the heritability.

For the record, I was incorrect saying Amos  is a Super Dazzler grandson.  His mother was a SD grand daughter.  Not a big deal except that my Shorthorn cows are Super Dazzler grand daughters, so it starts adding up.  Dream Weaver and Leah's Legacy are half brothers out of Super Dazzler and I have a daughter of each. 
My Dream Weaver daughter (Sudden Dream) is a grand daughter of Impossible Dream, CCL 6th's dam, so it adds up more if I breed to him. 
The Dream family cows have such nice udders as well as many other maternal traits.  The Leah's Legacy daughter not so much on the udder, but she is only 7/8 and there are many variables there.
So here is the pedigree of Dream Weavers mother.  Can anyone shed some light on her genetics for me.  I think the Dream Weaver maternal strength may be coming from behind this cow.  I am at the beginning of a long road with this breeding, so I'd like to get my bearings.
The great maternal quality I forgot to mention is adaptability. Thanks again.  I am on kind of a Shorthorn desert island out here.

TS JEANIE MARIE BC

I605697 DNA-N DEERPARK IMPROVER 19TH
3807924 PM PHA-F TH-C DNA-Y DEERPARK IMPROVER 57
I217596 DNA-N DEERPARK SCARLET 11TH
Sire: x3843742 DNA-N HOMEDALE BROADCAST
3791564 DNA-N ROCKLANDS DRAKE
x3817337 DNA-N HOMEDALE RUBY D
x3734993 DNA-N HOMEDALE RUBY P 1
x3635079 DNA-N INNOVATOR
x3751304 DNA-N HOMEDALE VOYAGER
x3702219 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA C
Dam: x3820059 DNA-N TS VOYEGER JEANIE
x3645070 DNA-N THE WHEATLAND SPECIAL
x3737108 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 104
3737105 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 905

 

[oakview]

You have an interesting combination of Irish, Milking Shorthorn, Australian, and Scotch Shorthorns.  Not an uncommon combination.  All you need is a little Maine and you'd just about have all the bases covered.  Deerpark Improver 57th was widely used and is one of the more common recent ancestors of the TH deformity.  Fortunately, Dream Weaver didn't get the gene.  Rocklands Drake was one of the last direct Irish imports and was used a little bit.  Pride of Homedale is a Super Flag (Australian) X Leader 9th product with a little Haumont (dual purpose, double registered) thrown in for good measure.  Leader 9th and his sire, Leader 21, were among the more popular sire lines in the late 60's-70's.  They are seeing use again today.  Super Flag and Super Dazzler were the widest used Australian bulls in North America, I believe.  Village Ruby was a 100% dual purpose (Milking Shorthorn).  Homedale Voyager is a Clark X Columbus (dual purpose) cross.  The Wheatland Special is closely related to Clark and Columbus, also being raised by the Grahams of Minnesota.  Special is the produce of Great White Hope, a Columbus son, mated to his mother, Clayside Cindy 2nd.  She was one of the noted Milking Shorthorn females of her day.  Pomona also appears, he was a full brother to Columbus.  One could make the argument that the milking ability comes from the dual purpose, or Milking Shorthorn, ancestry.  Others might say they were hard doing cattle that required a lot of feed to milk.  Depends on your point of view and which side of the argument you want to support.   

 

[librarian]

That is great information and really makes sense.
I have a personal theory that the Scotch Shorthorns were regionally adapted by an infusion of native Scottish genetics.  To get back in that direction, I am putting in 25% White Galloway to some of my Shorthorns. This 15 month old bull is half Galloway half Red Angus. 
Being grass fed, "hard doing" is not an option, so Galloway my solution for the moment.  Collings did it with the Alloy family, so I guess it's not a terrible idea
But are there surviving lines of pre Maine Shorthorn females that are not miking shorthorns?
Which dual purpose are more "easy keepers" or beef type? 
I have seen some photos of Full Irish females that look very beefy.  I know a lot of Scotch bulls were imported to Ireland at one time for "improvement" of Irish stock, but I do not know if those bloodlines survived WWII.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Librarian:

If you ever collect semen on Amos-- let me know- I would be interested in purchasing!

I think using the red angus/galloway mix to keep the hardiness in your cows will definitely work out.
I also cross red angus onto some of my shorthorns and the calves are always awesome!  The Durham Red is in my opinion one of the best composites out there, they just haven't gotten off the ground very far-- but it will come!
EF

 

[librarian]

Okay, I'll let you know if I collect him.  I hadn't really thought about it.

 

[oakview]

In my opinion, there are/were lots of dual purpose Shorthorns that are/were easy keeping, good doing cattle.  Again, in my opinion, the ones that might be considered harder doing by beef producers were the ones that were selected highly for milk production, or those to be used strictly as dairy cows.  The Scotch and Milking Shorthorns were all in one herd book until the late 40's anyway.  How they progressed in each direction was influenced by selection pressure of the breeders.  It wasn't until the 70's and 80's that outside blood was legally allowed in, Maines, Milking Shorthorns re-accepted into the beef herd book, and other appendix lines.  I certainly would not eliminate an animal from consideration just because it has dual purpose blood in it.  In fact, if you go back far enough, most current cattle have some.  There were many, many true dual purpose herds that had easy keeping, good doing cattle back in the day.  Some of these genetics are still available today. 

 

[justintime]

I will agree that some of the milking Shorthorn genetics from decades ago were very easy fleshing. In the early 70s I went to Ontario to try and find a couple of these cows for our herd. They were called dual purpose Shorthorns in those days. I found that many herds were shipping out many powerful cows to market as they were trying to increase the milk in their herds. I could have purchased a pile of cows at market price  and ended up bringing over 30 back here. Most were 3-5 years old and weighed 1450-1600 lbs and I was able to buy most of them for $300 which was about what they were worth on the market at that time. I only purchased cows that had produced less than 8000 lbs of milk as I wanted cows that to go into our beef herd and not need to be pampered. Most of these cows worked well, with only a few that did not handle the change in environment. Some of these cows were the toughest cows I have ever seen, and I am quite sure I could not have killed them with a axe. Two of these cows are amongst the oldest cows to have ever stayed here in production with one raising an excellent calf at 21 years of age and the  other at 20 years. Actually the bull calf from the 21 year old cow was sent to the Midland Bull Test in Billings where he was the top preforming Shorthorn bull and he sold to Dick Braman in Michigan. They were fertile, hard working and trouble free, easy fleshing  and always brought a very good calf in each fall. I think that over 20 of these females were still here 5 years after I purchased them, and we were running 350 cows at that time, so there wasn't much time to pamper anything.  A

 

[librarian]

oakview,
I really appreciate the information you are giving me.
I am looking at the bottom side of Impossible Dream (Dream Weaver daughter) now.  This being relevant because she is the dam of Coalpit Creek Leader 6th.
The point of all the following is that I would like to hear more about Columbus, or the other animals involved that I can't read into, if you have any stories. I can't get back to this until tonight or tomorrow, but I'd really like to learn some more. 

this is where Columbus came thru in your remarks:
Homedale Voyager is a Clark X Columbus (dual purpose) cross. 
The Wheatland Special is closely related to Clark and Columbus, also being raised by the Grahams of Minnesota.  Special is the produce of Great White Hope, a Columbus son, mated to his mother, Clayside Cindy 2nd.  She was one of the noted Milking Shorthorn females of her day. 
Pomona also appears, he was a full brother to Columbus. 

I see that HOMEDALE STELLA V (Impossible Dream's dam) goes to Columbus on the top side thru VOYAGER
and that TS JEANIE MARIE BC (Dream Weaver's dam) goes to Columbus on the bottom side thru VOYAGER and SPECIAL

I know this is tedious, but it helps me understand if I look at it this way

dam of impossible dream  HOMEDALE STELLA V

x3540006 DNA-N COLUMBUS
x3635079 DNA-N INNOVATOR
x3581650 DNA-N EMBEE FROSTY MIST
Sire: x3751304 DNA-N HOMEDALE VOYAGER
x3534244 DNA-N CLARK
x3702219 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA C
x3491132 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA
I603171 DNA-N DEERPARK IMPROVER 13TH
3737445 DNA-N IDS DUKE OF DUBLIN
IFNC1651 DNA-N GORTBOY KILDYSART
Dam: x3766994 DNA-N HOMEDALE STELLA MAE D D
x3473586 DNA-N BALL DEE PERFECT COUNT
x3570201 DNA-N CGS COUNTESS STELLA'S MAE
x3436657 DNA-N CGS RED RIVER STELLA G


dam of dream weaver TS JEANIE MARIE BC

I605697 DNA-N DEERPARK IMPROVER 19TH
3807924 PM PHA-F TH-C DNA-Y DEERPARK IMPROVER 57
I217596 DNA-N DEERPARK SCARLET 11TH
Sire: x3843742 DNA-N HOMEDALE BROADCAST
3791564 DNA-N ROCKLANDS DRAKE
x3817337 DNA-N HOMEDALE RUBY D
x3734993 DNA-N HOMEDALE RUBY P 1
x3635079 DNA-N INNOVATOR
x3751304 DNA-N HOMEDALE VOYAGER
x3702219 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA C
Dam: x3820059 DNA-N TS VOYEGER JEANIE
x3645070 DNA-N THE WHEATLAND SPECIAL
x3737108 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 104
3737105 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 905

I guess, to really wear it out, I'll show TS VOYEGER JEANIE

dam of Jeanie Marie  TS VOYEGER JEANIE

x3540006 DNA-N COLUMBUS
x3635079 DNA-N INNOVATOR
x3581650 DNA-N EMBEE FROSTY MIST
Sire: x3751304 DNA-N HOMEDALE VOYAGER
x3534244 DNA-N CLARK
x3702219 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA C
x3491132 DNA-N HOMEDALE BONNY MINA
x3558438 DNA-Y GREAT WHITE HOPE
x3645070 DNA-N THE WHEATLAND SPECIAL
3547331 DNA-N CLAYSIDE CINDY 2D
Dam: x3737108 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 104
3540008 DNA-N POMONA
3737105 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 905
x3629980 DNA-N CEDAR CURVE JEANIE



 

 

[oakview]

I'll post a photo of Columbus tonight, assuming my daughter is available to handle the technical work!  Columbus was sold in the Graham dispersal in 1973, I believe, for in the neighborhood of $14,000.  I attended the sale and it averaged about 3,250.  I thought it would be the highest priced sale I would ever attend.  I think JIT was at that sale, too, and has previously posted remarks about it.  I remember Columbus as a moderate framed, for the time, attractive, stylish, correct bull.  His paternal brother, Clark, was advertised as being 6 feet tall and as being the "bull that got the Shorthorn breed out of the mud."  Columbus was no where near that big.  Spiro was another bull the Grahams promoted at that time and was smaller than Columbus, according to what I remember.  He sold to Texas, I believe, and did a good job there.  He was advertised as a calving ease bull, too.  I used Clark the most of the three.  I guess I wanted the big ones then.  I had 2 All-American bulls out of him and a champion and top selling female at the Iowa beef expo, also sired by Clark.  There would be countless champions and top sellers from the early to mid 70's sired by Clark and Columbus.  JIT can elaborate, too.  I have a good memory, but he's been lots more places than I have.