Maternal traits Marellan Super Dazzler

[justintime]

There are lots of things that are pretty fuzzy in my memory, but the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal is still very clear in my mind. It was a great event for that time in history. I remember the hotel being full of Shorthorn breeders, the night prior to the sale, and the general concensus was that Columbus was going to sell for $30,000 - $80,0000 which would have been a record price at the time. Some people said that he was going to sell to a group of Argentine breeders. When the sale commenced the next day, it started with the selling of Columbus. I was in total shock when the bidding seemed to stall at $4000. I had not even thought of purchasing this bull,but I did like him. I started to bid on him and actually owned him at $6000 for several minutes at that price. They actually stopped the sale a few times to allow syndicates to be formed on him, and I think it took an hour to sell him. To this day, I think it was the longest auction of any animal I have ever seen. I remember shaking in my boots as I was fresh out of college and I did not have $6000 and was wondering how I could race home and get the money put together before the cheque made it back to clear my bank.

Columbus was a very good bull but was smaller framed than I had expected to see. He was one of the smoothest made bulls I have seen... ever. He was very sound and had moderate muscling. I liked him more than any of the other bulls there that day. Spiro was not as well balanced and while he did sire some pretty decent females, he did appear to have been made by a committee. Robert Dahl, from the Texas Panhandle purchased Spiro and he really worked for him in his herd.
Clark was very tall and more dairy like in his make-up, however, I have always been impressed with some of the cattle I have seen that have him as a grand sire or dam. He did quite a bit of good for the breed at that time. I think that Columbus is a bull that could be used again today especially on some of today's genetics. Some of his daughters stick out in my memory as some of the best females I have seen. There were also a few good bulls from him, but, like many Shorthorn bulls at the time, his females were more impressive. The Crestdale herd in Saskatchewan used Columbus a lot and they produced some excellent offspring. Some of their Columbus females were near flawless in design.
I would think that there has to be some semen somewhere in a tank on some of these sires. Columbus and Clark were used all over North America in many herds, and I suspect that someone, somewhere has a few straws in their tanks yet.

 

[justintime]

I just did a conversion to find out what a sale average of $3250 in 1973 would be if it was held in 2013 to get the same amount of value. At first, the answer I received did not seem possible but I did the conversion on another inflation calculator site, and it gave the same answer. A sale averaging 3250 in 1973, would be the same as a sale averaging $17119.38 today. When you consider this, maybe these $20,000 or more heifers are not as far out of line as many think they are!

 

[Medium Rare]

I would think that there has to be some semen somewhere in a tank on some of these sires. Columbus and Clark were used all over North America in many herds, and I suspect that someone, somewhere has a few straws in their tanks yet.

I'd imagine there is still some around.  I had picked up 15 or 20 on Columbus over the years and wasn't even alive when he was around.  Surely if I, as just a kid who was fairly new to the breed at the time, was able to get my hands on it surely some of the older breeders are sitting on some.   

 

[librarian]

Thank you very much for making Columbus real. Many of the 19th century Shorthorn bulls seem like familiar characters from a favorite book to me, but the bulls from the recent past are all a mystery.
My bull Amos is out of HHFS ASHLEY.  I am trying to think ahead about AMOS on CCL6th daughters and vice versa.
I see ASHLEY goes to Columbus on the top and the bottom, so I am happy about that.
I also see that her maternal grand sire is TS BANKERS DELIGHT PO out of 3W PAYOFF.
HHFS ASHLEY
A8707587 DNA-N WYARAMA VICAR
x3909543 PMSY PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y MARELLAN SUPER DAZZLER ET
xA8802734 DNA-N MARELLAN ISOBEL 29TH
Sire: x3937624 TH-F DNA-Y HHFS LEAH'S LEGACY
x3808121 DNA-N HOMEDALE SURGEON GENERAL
x3838109 DNA-N TS WINNING LEAH
x3737107 DNA-N BRAELOCH WINNING MARY 126
x3781551 PMSY PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y 3W PAYOFF
x3865669 DNA-N TS BANKERS DELIGHT PO
x3799170 DNA-N HOMEDALE STELLA V
Dam: x3902421 PD DNA-N TS EMPERESS DEE BD
x3751304 DNA-N HOMEDALE VOYAGER
x3820059 DNA-N TS VOYEGER JEANIE
x3737108 DNA-N BRAELOCH JEANIE 104

I saw some pictures on this site of 3W PAYOFF and GREEN RIDGE ROBIN R 180.  I have to say that PAYOFF doesn't seem like my kind of bull, but I understand that  BANKERS DELIGHT is out STELLA V, which makes him half brother to IMPOSSIBLE DREAM. That works for my program, but I'd like to know more about AF DIVIDEND'S IMPACT.
He shows up again behind my cow SUDDEN DREAM.  SUDDEN DREAM is my foundation cow, so this IMPACT stuff gets intensified with AMOS.  I have read JIT's remarks about DIVIDEND, http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/deerpark-leader-13th/
but i would like to know more about how these genetics might affect a low input system.
My real unknown is the maternal trait contribution from AMOS thru REMITALL CHOICE MINT. These relationships are very difficult for me to grasp and I value your experience.
I'm putting up some pictures as well as a picture of a Dividend grandaughter that JIT put up.  I would like to know how large this cow is.  She is just what I like.

HHFS SUDDEN DREAM
A8707587 DNA-N WYARAMA VICAR
x3909543 PMSY PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y MARELLAN SUPER DAZZLER ET
xA8802734 DNA-N MARELLAN ISOBEL 29TH
Sire: x3937622 PS PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y HHFS DREAM WEAVER
x3843742 DNA-N HOMEDALE BROADCAST
x3865674 PD DNA-N TS JEANIE MARIE BC
x3820059 DNA-N TS VOYEGER JEANIE
3723191 PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y AF DIVIDEND'S IMPACT
3868200 TH-F DNA-Y AF SUDDEN IMPACT 9182 ET
3702855 PS DNA-N AF SHANNON MARGIE 924
Dam: 4021004 DNA-N HHFS DAY DREAM
x3937622 PS PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y HHFS DREAM WEAVER
3960402 PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y HHFS IMPOSSIBLE DREAM
x3799170 DNA-N HOMEDALE STELLA V

 

[oakview]

The top bull you have pictured is GR Exclusive.  He is a son of Robin R180 out of GR Dreamboat.  Dreamboat was a son of Dividend (Leader 13th) and out of a Chianina crossbred cow.  He stil has one of the highest BEPDs ever on the ASA website.  I used both Exclusive and Dreamboat in the late 80's and got along okay calving.  I liked the Exclusive calves a little better than the Dreamboats as far as style and type goes.  The Robin R180 cow was one of my all time favorite show heifers.  I have a few descnedants of hers still in the herd.  3W Payoff is an easy calver, but offspring would probably be considered a little large framed for today.  They can also be quite colorful.  Dividend's Impact would be considered one of the best Dividend sons, in my opinion, and was successfully used in the Schrag program.  He still appears in the background of many of their top cattle.  My daughter was too busy to help me with the photo of Columbus last night.  We'll get it, maybe Payoff and Impact, too.  Have you seen a photo of Choice Mint? 

 

[librarian]

Sorry, I thought the photos in this thread http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/shorthorn-bulls-of-the-80s/?nowap we both of 3W PAYOFf. Here is his picture.
Also are pictures of Remitall Choice Mint, his sire Remitall Hercules, and his grand sire Kelburn Great Event.  This demonstrates why I am having a hard time reconciling a combination of these Scotch bulls with the PAYOFF TYPE.  They do not seem to be intended for the same purpose. 
Hopefull, the picture of Columbus will fill in the gap.

Yes, you are very right about that cow probably not working in a low input system.  The Robin cow is really more like an efficient cow. But I still like the big cow, and I'm trying to figure out how such a thick cow could descend from a DIVIDEND type bull and where the depth is coming from.  I'm associating depth with rumen capacity and constitution, and maybe, with smaller bulls and a shot of Galloway, I could get that type down to a 1200 lb version someday.
Thanks again.

 

[oakview]

Calfhood photo of Super Dazzler and a show picture from a couple of years later.  I know the show photo has been posted before, but I found the calfhood picture and thought this might be interesting.  The picture of Columbus I found was a little dark, I'll try to find a better one.

 

[oakview]

Mature photo of AF Dividend's Impact, sire of Payoff.  Also included is a picture of a Payoff daughter we raised that was reserve champion heifer at the Iowa Beef Expo in 1993.  She was out of a Dollar II (fullblood Maine) cow.  We still have one daughter and two granddaughters in the herd along with many, many other Roseleafs.

 

[oakview]

I went ahead and posted this Columbus picture, though it seemed a little dark.  We'll see how it looks and if it isn't good enough to see, I'll try to find a better one.  Enjoy.

 

[oakview]

The Irish cattle are like all the other lines in that there are easy doing ones and those that are a little harder keeping.  Unless I'm mistaken, the cow pictured is a Strawberry.  I'm not sure the Robin 180 cow would maintain her flesh in typical pasture conditions.  It is almost hard to believe the Remitall cattle you've pictured were considered beef cattle in their time and so was Payoff.  Believe it or not, I've seen more extreme cattle, both ways, in my 49 years with the breed.  The old adage, "If you want to ruin a breed of livestock, start showing them," sometimes rings true.  It's almost laughable the same college professors called all of them "ideal."

 

[aj]

I had a Payoff son.....he did alot of things right......but the Payoff line was terrible in fleshing ability. I heard Payoff couldn't keep in flesh when in stud. My bull was harder keeping and so were my bulls daughters. just my experience's.

 

[oakview]

AJ:  I saw photos of your Payoff son in those old magazines.  I remembered him and liked him at the time.  I had a similar experience with the Payoffs we raised.  The show heifer pictured earlier did a great job and maintained her condition quite well until we lost her at 13 or 14 years of age.  Her last remaining daughter is 8, sired by Oakview Checkmate (Trump son).  She has raised 2 heifers the last two years, finally heifers.  I'm hoping to get many more.  Most of the other Payoffs we had were pretty to look at, but they liked a feed bucket.  Probably needed one, too.

 

[librarian]

Oakview,
I am so glad I asked for help studying this.  Those pictures are great and seeing Columbus and Dividend's Impact really move my understanding forward. When I got Amos, the only real guidance I got was to "do it right" and I feel a responsibility.  I have made good crosses with Amos on everything I've put him on, and crosses have great commercial advantage,especially when easy fleshing, hardiness and adaptability are priorities.  But I also lament that so many bloodlines, created over lifetimes of deliberate breeding, have been crossed out of existence. So while the crosses pay the rent with beef, I'll keep studying the Shorthorn blood and try not to lose the direction.
Here's a couple of the crosses, both out of heifers.  The red is s 3 way Angus/Galloway/Shorthorn and the other is a Hereford/Shorthorn. 
The little roan heifer at the beginning of this post is where I would like to go with the Shorthorns. She is an Amos daughter out of a Sudden Dream daughter out of a Kenbar Perfect Count 13th son. The unregistered dam of that bull (Count O' DW Mint) went to Choice Mint on the bottom thru a cow called Brown's Promise Mint.
 
I sincerely appreciate your time.  I'll digest all this and stop pestering you for a while. At least now I am not shooting in the dark.