Monopoly Clones

[bluffcountrycattle]

While I'm no expert on clones, I'm pretty sure that genetically they are the exact same thing as the original!  The only difference in the pics you are looking at are differences in environment, care, fitting, or even a camera angle.  Amongst many other differences that don't affect the genes that they produce.  They did take some impressive pictures though!

 

[TottenClubCalves]

While I'm no expert on clones, I'm pretty sure that genetically they are the exact same thing as the original!  The only difference in the pics you are looking at are differences in environment, care, fitting, or even a camera angle.  Amongst many other differences that don't affect the genes that they produce.  They did take some impressive pictures though!

Neither one is actually to the T just like monopoly. Its been proven that the embrotic sack that the calf is in some genetics from the cow its in. Even though there clones there embryo has to be put in a surrogate cow therefore there is a slight difference in each clone and the original monopoly. It really doesn't do much but there definetly not a 100% replica more like a 99.7 replica lol (lol)

 

[Sly]

clones or not.  They are nice looking bulls.  I would take either of them.

 

[DLD]

Are the cloned bulls limiting the genetic progress of the industry?  I believe so.  Probably without the clones, most of todays winning show steers would still trace back to Heatwave, but by now we ought to be 3 or 4 generations away instead of the 1 or 2 we are now.  Maybe we (club calf breeders) would be producing more cattle that are consistently sounder and better growing - maybe we wouldn't...

Will I use the Monopoly clones?  Yep, I sure will.  Of all the bulls we've ever used, Monopoly has given us the most consistent set of calves - lot's of quality, no soundness issues or calving problems (so far(knock on wood)). 

Does that make me a hypocrite?  I don't know, don't really care.  If I'm going to try to raise club calves, it doesn't make sense not to use what wins and sells, and right now Monopoly fits the bill.

 

[ranch4profit]

I'm guessing its the same bull pictured twice. Don't really matter. Clones are clones.

 

[kfacres]

Posts taken from another POST!
I've alluded to this in a past post concerning cloning, but I do find it disheartening that many of the bulls we are seeing cloned these days are defect carriers, ie. Heatwave and Monopoly. And the reason for them being cloned is due to the fact that the original bulls can not keep up with the huge demand for their semen.  How much of this defect genetics are we pumping into the cattle world by just these 2 sires alone, not to mention the 100+ A.I. sires out there out of these 2 bulls.

Cloning does not (IMO) move any breed or species forward if the gene pool is continully saturated with the same genes.  Sets the stage for a who new set of genetic mutations.  Cloning keeps us in the present.  I would like to move forward.  

And it seems,IMO, like the ones they are cloning are not only just defect carriers, but also do not pass on the maternal traits needed to produce a good cow. Ie Heatwave, it seems like any daughter of his I have read about have been a donor because they can't milk to save their lives. Another thing is before the two clones monopoly semen was upwards of $100. (correct me if I'm wrong there) I understand there is a demand for him but I heard that his semen quality is pretty low, why would that be something you want to pass on? You spend all this time effort and money into an animal who will most likely never bring back what you put into it. What if because the gene pool being so small there ARE new mutations, just one more thing you have to worry about when breeding your cattle. Okay there's my two cents.
Posted on: January 11, 2011, 10:44:55 PMPosted by: herfluvr  
Insert Quote
Quote from: ZNT on January 11, 2011, 03:23:27 PM
I've alluded to this in a past post concerning cloning, but I do find it disheartening that many of the bulls we are seeing cloned these days are defect carriers, ie. Heatwave and Monopoly. And the reason for them being cloned is due to the fact that the original bulls can not keep up with the huge demand for their semen.  How much of this defect genetics are we pumping into the cattle world by just these 2 sires alone, not to mention the 100+ A.I. sires out there out of these 2 bulls.

Cloning does not (IMO) move any breed or species forward if the gene pool is continully saturated with the same genes.  Sets the stage for a who new set of genetic mutations.  Cloning keeps us in the present.  I would like to move forward.  
Posted on: January 11, 2011, 03:23:27 PMPosted by: ZNT  
Insert Quote
I've alluded to this in a past post concerning cloning, but I do find it disheartening that many of the bulls we are seeing cloned these days are defect carriers, ie. Heatwave and Monopoly. And the reason for them being cloned is due to the fact that the original bulls can not keep up with the huge demand for their semen.  How much of this defect genetics are we pumping into the cattle world by just these 2 sires alone, not to mention the 100+ A.I. sires out there out of these 2 bulls.

they are clones.. it shouldn't matter how they look...  
Not to mention the ideal show animal is constantly changing, or did you miss the ten foot tall stage? Oh and FYI I'm Ecstatic they made his clones, and your not going to alter my opinion .

Actually, I do think that you missed the bandwagon lady!-- According to your statement I have PUT IN BOLD...  I agree, and in response to the trend-- clones are not needed- they keep you STUCK IN THE PAST... If you are stuck in the past- you can't make change!  

I wish I had a smiliey for "shot yourself in the foot!"

 

[CAB]

Looks like it's a real old fashion feud!! Yee-Haw!!

 

[JSchroeder]

This "stuck in the past" stuff is getting silly.  Monopoly is six years old.

Meyer 734 is 22 years old.  Using the whole "stuck in the past" logic, you might as well throw that semen out since those genetics are so old and so far behind.

 

[kfacres]

This "stuck in the past" stuff is getting silly.  Monopoly is six years old.

Meyer 734 is 22 years old.  Using the whole "stuck in the past" logic, you might as well throw that semen out since those genetics are so old and so far behind.

6 years old.. and a failure at semen production for the last 2.. sounds like something I want to propigate in my herd <rock>

NO, but makin ole HW over and over, and using him over and over.. is getting VERY OLD!  Atleast Meyer worked more times than NOT!  HW's what like 10? and hasn't froze semen in how many years- 6?  Guess Monopoly is right on the target though!

 

[JSchroeder]

Failure at semen production the last 2?

I just put a straw in a cow that was collected on the 20th of last month.

 

[frostback]

So at what age is a bull no longer moving us ahead and I have to throw out my semen on him?

 

[CAB]

For me it is more satisfying to produce a very good maternal heifer, so I have found myself looking in the past more & more although it seems that I have a hard time resisting the great looking bulls of today. Depending on what your goals are, if you are going to be in today's steer production in the north or midwest area, you are going to have to almost use HW or a HW derivative. These 2 Monopoly clones look the part. I myself have been able to not use HW or monopoly for a few years. Not saying that, that has been the best decision in the near term, but hopefully down the road aways it will prove to be what I needed to do. We'll see.

Now, please, back to the feud!!

 

[flacowman]

without human interference, TH and PHA both would have nearly eradicated themselves by now or possibly never even popped up because.  Cloning and line breeding are the types of things that cause genetic defects.  Look at the angus cattle...they have traced all of the defects to single bulls and cows who were collected or flushed and then those recessive genes got line bred into cattle who were "superior."  Personally it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the breed associations said we are not registering carriers any more, period...now I'm not advocating that but it would solve a problem.  I know when I got my angus cows tested and had some carriers they hit the road and all of my clubby cattle are clean as well because personally I would rather sell calves for slightly less than they might be worth as carriers for the phenotype but sell heifers that I can promise kids will be ok to breed to anything.  Losing calves for any reason hurts my heart, much less the mama with him, so I would much rather have 100% born live and clean than any percentage at all born dead and deformed.  Genetic defects are a fault, period, and it is therefore our duty to breed away from known faults and for me part of that is clean cattle and clean AI bulls.

It's all jmo but it's the truth as I see it...not targeting anyone or intending any animosity  <beer>

 

[DLD]

Not sure I could call Monopoly a failure at semen production.  We've had 100% conception, a calf for every straw of Monopoly semen we've ever used.  Yes, there's supposedly some lower quality semen out there, but is that the bulls fault, or was it just cut a little too much, trying to make it go a little farther?  Word was that he wasn't producing semen there for awhile - I can understand that if a bull spends his whole life being milked for semen that he might sometimes slow down.  It's a safe bet that he's produced more semen in the past 5 years than most bulls would ever produce in several lifetimes...

Without the clones, we'd be using the sibs and the sons and grandsons more.  I doubt we'd have an entirely different genetic pool, just maybe a little deeper one.  Those who won't use carriers probably won't be using any Heatseeker/Heatwave/Monopoly genetics anyway, so maybe those folks will come up with something to save the rest of us from ourselves one of these days...

 

[chambero]

This "stuck in the past" stuff is getting silly.  Monopoly is six years old.

Meyer 734 is 22 years old.  Using the whole "stuck in the past" logic, you might as well throw that semen out since those genetics are so old and so far behind.

6 years old.. and a failure at semen production for the last 2.. sounds like something I want to propigate in my herd <rock>

NO, but makin ole HW over and over, and using him over and over.. is getting VERY OLD!  Atleast Meyer worked more times than NOT!  HW's what like 10? and hasn't froze semen in how many years- 6?  Guess Monopoly is right on the target though!

Your are dead wrong on semen production on both accounts - Heat Wave and Monopoly.  I used semen on Monopoly collected in September 09 and got some of the best conception I've ever had on any bull.  I never had problems with Heat Wave either.  I'm really surprised the owners don't jump all over some of you folks for this kind of innaccurate information.

A lot of posters claim you shouldn't be using bulls till they are "proven".  So how long does it take to prove a bull?  Let's see they need to be at least 12-18 months old before they produce enough semen to amount to anything, 2+ before they really get cranking.  So a bull will be 3 before they would ever have many calves on the ground.  Another 18 months before those steer calves are finished.  The heifers need 2 years before they have babies.  Another couple of years to see how females will really do in production. You get the picture.

Monopoly is just barely starting to move into the "proven" category.  They cloned him because he got hurt.  Heck, people are just now starting to figure out what to do with Heat Wave cows. 

Breeding cattle does not move at video game pace.  For a lot of bulls that aren't owned by people with the financial/marketing resources of the Lautners to get them used heavily young, you really wouldn't know a bull is truly proven - especially for female production - until they are near the end of their useful life.  In our own herd, we don't usually figure out which sires truly turned out the best cows till those bulls have been dead a couple of years.  And then its "dang I wish we had more of those".  You don't really know what a cow is going to to really do till she's 4-6 years old.  As cloning becomes cheaper, it will be easier to collect tissue samples and hold on to them till you know you want to clone something.  Right now all of this stuff is still in a pilot test phase.

Collectively, we need to quit talking out both sides of our mouth.  If you want to go use other genetics, do it.  Go find something that works better.  All of this worry about narrowing the gene pool is crap.  It may be narrow for a very tiny little segment of steer production, but there are more good bulls out from all kinds of bloodlines in all kinds of breeds than you can shake a stick at.  But its hard to know that if your exposure to the beef industry is limited to reading to the Show Circuit or Show Box.  Get out and find them yourself.  Plenty of breeders don't care to bother to advertise in print.  Frankly, promoting bulls for semen production is a waste of money unless you have developed a name and are really, really good at it.  There are a whole lot more good bulls out there than there are good marketers.  But that's not the Lautners fault.

 

[hntwhitetail]

This "stuck in the past" stuff is getting silly.  Monopoly is six years old.

Meyer 734 is 22 years old.  Using the whole "stuck in the past" logic, you might as well throw that semen out since those genetics are so old and so far behind.

6 years old.. and a failure at semen production for the last 2.. sounds like something I want to propigate in my herd <rock>

NO, but makin ole HW over and over, and using him over and over.. is getting VERY OLD!  Atleast Meyer worked more times than NOT!  HW's what like 10? and hasn't froze semen in how many years- 6?  Guess Monopoly is right on the target though!

Failure @ semen production? ???  Most places won't carry semen if it doesn't live up to their specs.

HW just passed this summer.  

 

[CAB]

so maybe those folks will come up with something to save the rest of us from ourselves one of these days...

It sounds like there maybe hope for me in your statement. There are some clean HW/HS bulls starting to show up and we are all hoping that one of them will throw the calves we are looking for, but as yet IMO, they are not quite stout enough to replace the old man or the Grand old man. Most PPL turn around and use those few clean bulls back on dirty cows anyhow. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing about calves out of The One & Only. There should be some. Has anyone seen any?

 

[BL Farms]

I think both clones look really good.  I would not hesitate to use either of them.  I know genetically, clones are the same as the original bull, but these guys are the first I have seen that really resemble the original.

 

[JSchroeder]

Can you guys please stop including my quote when replying to the truth? 

 

[Diamond]

Like I said, you need to get off your high horse, your like a two year old having a tantrum.  You seem to argue over anything that’s not to your liking, no one is saying , you have to breed to anything HW but my cattle are MY choice, I pay their feed bill, Ill breed what I like. As are anyone on here so stop your BS because honestly, its annoying. Yes, your entitled to your opinion, however so am I, When I said I was happy their where clones. IT gave you NO right to attempt to belittle me, and act like your some know it all in the cattle industry.  I didn’t disagree show lines are tight, but right now it’s the HW bred calves that bring the most in the clubby word.  If you don’t like monopoly why the heck did you come into a thread about him? Stop trying to grab attention, and leave the bull alone. Your not going to change peoples opinions on him, with your stupid rant!