Mr. Firewater calves

[LLBUX]

Had a Mr. Firewater X Angus calf on Monday and was surprised by its small size.    The bull calf was small headed, slender and about 70 pounds.  He was very vigorous at birth.  Dark gray with black nose and eyelashes. 

Based upon EPD data, I had expected a blocky 90 pound calf out of this heavier muscled Angus 3 year old.

I am curious about how the calf will now grow.    EPD's show good growth and the dam grew very well as a calf.

What are your personal experiences with Firewater calves.

Thank you!

 

[rackranch]

Just wondering why you expected a blocky 90# calve out of your angus cow? Hopefully calve grows well and has a high WW. Good luck.

 

[Freddy]

Heifer are more predictable than males , can hit bigger one and not know why ,heifers I think add weight but also have super calves and are good mothers ....Raised a son out of our best cow's and have first calves and look's like a winner ....The Charolais has a better gene pool than it had for quite a few years......

 

[LLBUX]

I bought semen with BW and CE numbers in the acceptable range.  I believe BW has gone up and CE numbers are not shown on most recent EPD data from the distributor.     

I believe I read a thread where some folks were having some issues so I was pleasantly surprised to find a smaller calf.

Spoke with another cattleman last night who is very disappointed with growth of his Firewater calves out of clubby cows.

 

[LLBUX]

Here is a video of Firewater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akQLl70rVQw&feature=player_embedded

Here is Angus momma as a heifer


And the baby

 

[Bradenh]

Spoke with another cattleman last night who is very disappointed with growth of his Firewater calves out of clubby cows.

I'm sure there's more than a couple guys out there disappointed with growth of calves out of clubby cows.....

 

[Mark H]

Firewater is not a high performance bull-not by a longshot.  Just look at his growth EPDs.  He has the lowest YW EPD  of any Genex Charolais bull on offer.  Firewater reminds me of the old early 80's show bull Hannibal BM in that his birth weighte were heavy and growth not exceptional in the calves.  he did sire plenty of winners kin his day however.  For more groth use a bull loke keys Ten-Acious: http://www.effertzkeyranch.com/sires/keystenacious166s.html or Rawes Sir T: http://tripleaaacharolais.com/charolais-herd-sire-rawes-sir-t-123y/

 

[Freddy]

mark h -- your bull criteria is just weight , some one else can worry about producing you another one ,,,,Do you know that they do sell a lot of cattle by the head also , not
just by the lb......    Some of the smaller breeder's can make a niche market work better for them.... ALSO at the sale barn by the lb. small groups are highly discounted just because of that ......In today's free world people have many different option's to make money or live their dream .....

 

[RyanChandler]

so.many.better.options

 

[HF CHARS]

mark h -- your bull criteria is just weight , some one else can worry about producing you another one ,,,,Do you know that they do sell a lot of cattle by the head also , not
just by the lb......    Some of the smaller breeder's can make a niche market work better for them.... ALSO at the sale barn by the lb. small groups are highly discounted just because of that ......In today's free world people have many different option's to make money or live their dream .....

Also could be said that in our area the great big stretchy char calves are being discounted because the take longer and more feed to finish.  My commercial customers love the firewater sons because they finish with the angus calves. But have more muscle.  But to each their own.  I'll keep making a living raising cattle I can sell

 

[Mark H]

All I was talking about was why they weren't getting the growth out of Firewater that they expected.  Growth is not everything functionality counts as well as muscle.for example.
If you are looking for an easier fleshing ,more muscled Charolais and don't mind sacrificing some growth then look no further than some of the more modern Full French bulls now available.  hey are also have great dispositions.  Most Western Canadian Charolais are at least half French for these reasons.  They also do well enough in the show ring, all out of proportion to their numbers in the herd book.The domestics add calving ease and growth in this equation as these are vital traits to a commercial producer.

 

[CAB]

  What Jamie says is very true, but I really enjoy the different perspectives that Mark brings to the table. Usually he talks about blood lines that I would never run across otherwise, so I hope that everyone keeps posting up the genetics that work in their own operations which usually gets us to thinking about our own cattle and I wonder if that bull is a viable option or what if I tried a little of that bull??

 

[Mark H]

Something to consider is that both Rawes and Effertz buy back the calves from their bull buyers to feed.  It is part of the reason whay their bull sale averages are so good. If the calves did not feed well I think they would soon do something about it.
XBAR,

How are the claves from that M^ bull you bought with the good EPDs?  have you kept any heifers back from him?

 

[OH Breeder]

  What Jamie says is very true, but I really enjoy the different perspectives that Mark brings to the table. Usually he talks about blood lines that I would never run across otherwise, so I hope that everyone keeps posting up the genetics that work in their own operations which usually gets us to thinking about our own cattle and I wonder if that bull is a viable option or what if I tried a little of that bull??

Agree CAB.. mark always seems to offer factual data to support what people are trying to achieve. Never took his feedback in negative way. I think he is super knowledgeable about unheard of genetics that has always made me take a second look.

 

[Bulldaddy]

"All I was talking about was why they weren't getting the growth out of Firewater that they expected.  Growth is not everything functionality counts as well as muscle.for example.
If you are looking for an easier fleshing ,more muscled Charolais and don't mind sacrificing some growth then look no further than some of the more modern Full French bulls now available.  hey are also have great dispositions.  Most Western Canadian Charolais are at least half French for these reasons.  They also do well enough in the show ring, all out of proportion to their numbers in the herd book.The domestics add calving ease and growth in this equation as these are vital traits to a commercial producer."


I am curious why some charolais are referred to as "French" or "Full French."  I was under the impression that the breed originated in France.  Are there strains that came from other countries like the simmental breed?  I am not a charolais breeder although I own some that I use to raise club calves. 

 

[Mark H]

A Full french Charolais can trace all its parentage back to original french imports.  No grading up occurred in their pedigrees.  All Fullblood Charolais originate in France. Cattle graded up in other countries generally are 31/32 Charolais to be considered domestic purebreds.  Polled strains of Full french Bulls are available.

Here is the french idea of a heifer bull: http://www.genesdiffusion.com/Charolais/Charolais-detail.aspx?cat=5&n=FR7121423579
A bull for cows: http://www.genesdiffusion.com/Charolais/Charolais-detail.aspx?cat=6&n=FR7957090255
Here are some Irish Full French http://www.sligoai.com/shop/25903

 

[Bulldaddy]

Very helpful.  Thanks for explaining and providing the additional links.