Mulberry

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aj

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I think there are show ring people who are bigger than than the breed. I think there are politicians that are above the law. I would assume that genetic defect result would be a economical important trait. But in the wide world of showringism......a genetic defect is just something to breed around. You are always going to have the 7 year program breeders who get in and out(usually whwn their kids show). This is where you can rid of the junk. New breeders don't have a clue and no animal science training.This is the target market for the defects. Alot of people make a living on these peoples ignorance. Don't know if it is wrong or right but it is what it is.
 

cowman 52

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  Forgive me but---- does Mulberry have any link to MB in his pedigree??
 
 




how many units of semen  a[ are out there  & b[  how many calves are there registered?

From all this fuss isn't it about time to find a new bull to breed cows to or do you wan to go down the 1680  road and [big question mark]  LINEBREED a bunch more for however many generations and see if maybe some other genetic defect can be created. 

  A few people with some genetic study can do the linebreeding sucessfully,  others are just seeing how many epd's they can pile up to sell some critter to some unknowing money man who just thinks he wants to be in the cow business
 

Show Heifer

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I do not think any disservice has been done to Mulberry.  Don't they say ANY publicity is good publicity? 

SD - The test is open to the public now.... anyone can send in samples, ANYONE. Let me stress that : ANYONE.  There is absolutely no excuse for not testing now. All they have to do is send samples to Dr.B.  The RAA did not  hand select those to test before hand. They had nothing to do with what bulls were tested.

As with every other breed in the world, yes, their are politics. And there are those that think they are "just better" than others. And there are those that will fight testing and fight the defect name till they are either out of business or surcome to pressure. (I am NOT saying brylors are in this catagory - I am speaking in general)  Look how the PHA/TH thing played out in the clubbie world. Those that said it didn't matter soon made a u-turn and started to test when the public demanded it. This will be no different.

The reason it is critical for bull stud owners to test is the RAA has made a ruling (a good one in my opinion) that registrations/transfered will be put on hold until tested or pedigree is deemed free. (I think that is how it is worded). So, with show season coming up, and sales in full swing, the time table is pretty short!!


CAB - if the breeders can not keep informed of their business, how do expect new buyers to be aware of such things? Or the commerical breeder? I think we need to raise our expectations for the breeders that want to be leaders in their respective breeds.

cowman: I do not believe there is a link in pedigree. But who knows.....keep in mind this is still a very new defect and other carriers will be discovered.

I am just glad I do not breed till June..... gives me a bit of very valuable time!

 

ROAD WARRIOR

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cowman 52 said:
  Forgive me but---- does Mulberry have any link to MB in his pedigree??
   
   




how many units of semen  a[ are out there  & b[  how many calves are there registered?

From all this fuss isn't it about time to find a new bull to breed cows to or do you wan to go down the 1680  road and [big question mark]  LINEBREED a bunch more for however many generations and see if maybe some other genetic defect can be created. 

  A few people with some genetic study can do the linebreeding sucessfully,  others are just seeing how many epd's they can pile up to sell some critter to some unknowing money man who just thinks he wants to be in the cow business

It would be nearly impossible (key word is nearly) to find a RA bull that does not trace back to Stormalong if you dig deep enough. For the record - A) There have been 0 calves sired by Mulberry that have been reported with marble bone. B) He is no more or no less suspect than any other bull that has not been tested. C) He will be tested in the very near future.
 I'm betting by pedigree he will test clean, time will tell. SD is right this post should have been titled differently, instead of singleing out one specific bull. RW
 

DL

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We are not throwing mud at the bull - look back thru past posts - many or us were impressed with and said positive things about Mulberry - what is being asked is why wasn't the bull tested? Simple question in my mind - if there was a simple straightforward answer this thread would have ended long ago

SD - MB didn't just happen yesterday - requests for samples went out a while ago when ABS pulled the carrier bulls - RA breeders should have been aware that Dr Beever was looking for the mutation and would be developing a test - in the validation he tested anything that was sent in - breeders need to be more proactive and responsible - it isn't Dr B responsibility to call everyone with a bull and ask them to send semen

BTW - just because there are no reports about anything doesn't mean it didn't happen/doesn't exist - how many reports of Draft Pick or Stinger siring PHA calves did we hear before they were identified as  carrier?

and RW is correct - it is very difficult to find a RA bull who does not trace to Stormalong somewhere along the line
 

Show Dad

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Let me restate my question: did anyone from the research team contact Semex, Coley's, or Stepping Stone (just examples)?  If not, what should we draw from that?
If yes, then what was there response?

Why this question? Because it might just provide insight into how some were approached and their reaction to it. Because if they were asked to provide samples and didn't then why are we singling out one particular stud? If they were contacted then again why not? Vested interests maybe?

Here right from the RA website it states: The research team obtained samples from ABS, Genex, and Accelerated Genetics as part of the DNA test's validation process.

That is the reason for my question. They obtained samples from some not all, why?

But if we are going to get on Brylor for not moving quick enough then what about Coley's or Semex (only as examples)? Or the owner of any bull that is for AI use?

And why not name the topic Mojito, Magestic Lightning or Rambo 502? (You know, someone is saying "oh crap, their dirty! No their not dirty just making a point)

I didn't see anyone post about 5L Red Angus' bull Direct Fire AM status taking so long (He traces right back to 1680). They do run their own semen selling operation. Why? No vested interests. The disservice comes from singling out some one because we have that semen in our tanks.

I agree with DL that the breeders need to be proactive. But all association members need to be as well (maybe not as much as DL. When does she sleep? ;)). I am glad we have the test for everyone to use and the hard work put in by all those involved (some right here on the Planet too). And I love the rules the RA has made.

We just need to give it time to work.

 

CAB

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  Lana & Jen, I didn't say that I agree with Brylor's not testing and I myself if in their shoes would say the quicker the better. As large as they are, there is no way around testing. If they don't test, it will come around anyway,it will just take longer and cost PPL more money. I was simply stating that there is is a lot more at stake there than what some of us small producers want to think about. Again, just saying, try to understand the other person's perspective on their side of the coin. Brent
 

DL

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CAB said:
  I was simply stating that there is is a lot more at stake there than what some of us small producers want to think about. Again, just saying, try to understand the other person's perspective on their side of the coin. Brent

Like what for example?
 

cowman 52

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  Attended a sale the past weekend, quote from a larger breeder "  I lose more calves to scours than to AM,  I don't see it as a problem"


  Attitude like that and just how many cattle from carrier bulls [any color]  get run through the sale barn and wind up in some commerical operation somewhere,  & how many BIG operations with say 100 sections don't even know the problem exists.  Do know of one that sent 200 bulls to the packer over 1680 showing up in both sides of the pedigree.    Some one with some scruples and good judgment.
 

aj

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Linebreeding doesn't cause genetic defects it exposes them. Looks like mul has interesting pedigree as he jumps into black angus pretty fast. He will probably be clean. One thing I always wondered about would be the following scenario. Say the old Improver Shorthorn bull accidentally got into say a Limousin line of cattle say in 1986? If the th was passed on down the line in the Limi line....would the current th test work on the limi line that look like limi's and whatnot say 7 generation removed from the shorthorn line? Did that make sense? Or would the marker be moved around a little different?
 

tama

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DL did I tell you yet that I've missed you?I understand your point-you see only in black and white.Some folks live in a grey world.Get it done get the results out and live with the facts! that simple Mulberry will succeed or fail on his own merit.Andthis post lasted way too long for the one point that I  see---no matter what was said in this post everybody with mulberry semen or calves wants to know the answer pdq forbetter or worse they just want to know!!             
 

knabe

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three stop codons  TAG, TAA, TGA, and one start codon ATG.

  without getting into exons and introns, proteins start with an ATG in the DNA.  the protein is ended with a stop codon.  looking at other amino acid codons, it's easy to see that if a TAG had a mutation in the third position that was not a G or an A, the protein would keep extending from the DNA (yes i left out a step for clarity).  conversely, if an amino acid was converted from a C or T in the third position, it would stop prematurely, and you would get a defective protein, and PHA or whatever.  yes, you can have mutations at different spots in different animals and the symptoms could be slightly different.  mutations in postitions which don't change the amino acid are called silent and other words.  yes, there is a lot going on, it's sometimes amazing we are even alive to argue about this.

the point mutation doesn't normally move around, as it usually doesn't have enough time to do that as the generation interval in cattle is so long.  this is overcome slightly when a carrier bull gets used on thousands of individuals.  in some frogs and plants, there are massive rearrangements upon union of gametes, but within the genes is pretty static, and the defective one's just die.  it's easy to see why it's real easy to get genetic freaks from these types of organisms that aren't lethal.

the example below doesn't include alternative starts and other scenarios for other explanations.  both strands are shown.

                                      stop (premature)                                                                                                                        stop (normal stop)
ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGA TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA     defective calf
ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGA TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA

ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGA TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA     carrier calf
ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGC TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA

ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGC TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA    defect free calf
ATG GCA CGT ACG TAC TGC TCG TAT CGG GAC GAT ATC GGT ACG ATC GAT CGT ACG TAC GTG GTG TAC TGT TCG TGT CTC TAA


as you can see, base pairs in general don't really move around on an individual basis, though multiple ones (not shown) can and do causing problems.

if there was a base pair change before the correct stop, or a deletion or insertion of basepairs, this would be a second defective allele, and yes, requires a separate test, like in TH.

i didn't go over the above, so there may be a mistake, so feel free to correct.
 

DL

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tama said:
DL did I tell you yet that I've missed you?I understand your point-you see only in black and white.Some folks live in a grey world.Get it done get the results out and live with the facts! that simple Mulberry will succeed or fail on his own merit.Andthis post lasted way too long for the one point that I  see---no matter what was said in this post everybody with mulberry semen or calves wants to know the answer pdq forbetter or worse they just want to know!!             

Thanks - I am going to interpret this as not being faciteous ;D

FWIW - it is my understanding that the entire Brylor catalog of bulls has been submitted for MB testing - good job Bryan - we appreciate your stepping up to the plate...and now the wait
 

reds with a purpose

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The results are in on Mulberry and Marble Bone. Go to Brylor's website. I will be curious to see what the people have to say now. All the Brylor bulls are clean. I assume there will be some apologies???
 

vcsf

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reds with a purpose said:
The results are in on Mulberry and Marble Bone. Go to Brylor's website. I will be curious to see what the people have to say now. All the Brylor bulls are clean. I assume there will be some apologies???


I believe that everyone will be ecstatic that these bulls tested clean especially Mullberry.  I do not understand why you seem to think that apologies would be in order.  I went back and reread all the posts on this topic and cannot see where anyone suggested that there was reason to believe that Mulberry in particular would not be clean and almost everyone seems to agree he is an excellent bull.  Personally, I feel is is phenotypically one of the best Red Angus bulls I have ever seen and more impressive is the fact he is siring several exceptional calves. 

The main question being asked was why Mulberry imparticular and Brylor's entire cattle in general was not tested initially.  This still has not been totally cleared up but the important thing is at least some of the bulls have been done.

Now I am going to get myself into trouble.  You say all the Brylor bulls are clean in fact his website says all Brylor OWNED bulls are clean as DL stated earlier there is at least one carrier in his catalog in Grand Prix.  Furthermore, I can count over a dozen bulls at least partially owned by Brylor in his catalog that he is not listing as being tested and at least two of these (red Pie Deep Canyon 908 and Red Brylor BCR Roulette 5R) are sired by a confirmed marble bone carrier.

Here is what is posted on Brylor's website

Marble Bone Testing Results just in:
ALL BRYLOR OWNED BULLS ARE CLEAN!!

Bulls Tested:

Red Fine Line Mulberry 26P
Red Brylor New Trend 22D
Red Brylor 40X Bailey 50K
Red Brylor Stallion 19J
Red Brylor Lead Pine 99L
Red Brylor Bodasius 79K
Red Brylor RSTD Hi Capacity 800M
Red Brylor Master Plan 17M
Red Fabulous Frontline 315N
Red Brylor WSP Karweik 1P
Red Brylor JAS Tip Top 6P
Red Brylor Stringer 29S
Red Brylor Smoker 64S
Red Brylor SDL Squall 230S
Red Northline Rob Roy 122K
Red Brylor Toast 30T
Red JKC Huckleberry 701
 

DL

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IMHO it is the bull owners RESPONSIBILITY to test their bulls (the bulls that they sell TONS of semen on) for known and testable genetic diseases - no one should expect kudos for doing the right thing or expect an apology for being encouraged to do the right thing when they were stalling and trying to blame others. There are several co owned bulls that are close up to documented MB carriers - rational people would expect they would be tested. Rational people would expect a test on every RA bull in the catalog - if for NO OTHER reason that good PR and customer relations.

I for one am delighted that Mulberry and Master Plan are clean - I actually bled my Mulberry heifer last night since there was nothing about his status anywhere when I checked yesterday.  Now I don't have to test her.

There are 48 RA bulls listed in the sale catalog - there are 17 tested as MB free - this is not about "their bulls" it is about testing the bulls that they sell semen on - no matter who owns them -  seems there is still work to do, but progress as always moves one step at a time. Kevin - when will the test on your Daytona bull be done? I don't see any mention that Grand Prix, a bull in their catalog, is a carrier. Transparency is really the key here.

Doing the right thing in regards to testing for known lethal genetic defects does not make a person a hero. The heros in all these genetic messes are those that reported defective calves, send in the samples, had the necropsies done, flushed the carriers to known carriers, maped the gene, found the defect - sending in sample for a test already developed should be a no brainer.

Have a great day - I really like my Mulberry heifer, but I will be looking for other RA bulls to use on mature cows in the future
 

reds with a purpose

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Sorry if there was confusion with my last post. It read "All Brylor bulls are clean" but their site reads "All Brylor Owned bulls are clean". Sorry if there was confusion.


I think everyone can be rest assured that prominent breeders that sell semen from this point on will all be testing their bulls.



 

DL

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reds with a purpose said:
Sorry if there was confusion with my last post. It read "All Brylor bulls are clean" but their site reads "All Brylor Owned bulls are clean". Sorry if there was confusion.

Yeah Kevin - that is the danger of cutting and pasting what somebody else says ;)

I count 15 Brylor owned bulls in their 2009 catalog that are not listed on the tested list above, plus a number of bulls they sell that they apparently do not own, but sell semen or have the semen rights. This list includes several bulls sired by the documented MB carrier BUF CRK CHF 824-1658. So while this is a start, there should be more to come. Has Daytona been tested and have you submitted samples on your other bulls for MB testing?
 
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