My two cents.

[trevorgreycattleco]

As I sit here tonight looking through the latest shorthorn country, I came across the Cates Farm catalog. There is another thread but this is my thoughts. It brings back flashbacks of so many things to me. 13 years ago this month I moved into this farm a began my farming journey. I knew nothing. I mean nothing. A retired vo ag teacher gave me a shorthorn country. I had never heard of them. Those early days for me were wonderful. I looked at the cates sale catalog so much I wore them out. I dreamed someday I'd go there and get me some of those beautiful calves and cows. I made a trip with a buddy of mine there. Let's call him "miller high life". I loved the place. Got to see everything I wanted. It blew my mind. I eventually got a trump/ rodeo drive/ leader 13th/ maid of promise bull. I loved that bull. I was so proud. When I read the letter the girl wrote I just smiled. What a amazing feat these folks have done. They are responsible for the foundation of our breed now. It's them by a mile. You may not use their genetics. You may not like their genetics but by God you better respect what they have done. They literally put the breed back on the map.


Now the question I think about more then I care to admit. Where do we go from here with what they have done? I think it can grow by leaps and bounds from here. They have a ideal operation to model after to produce quality cattle no matter what blood lines you use. I think they have some cows I now want to fix a bit. They also have some cows that I would love to give a shot in my operation style and breed to bulls I think work. Who says we can't combine some outside genetics from other breeders and turn this nice snowball into a big ol monster rolling down the mountain.

Ok. I just wanted to share what's on my mind tonight. I'm good now.

 

[cpubarn]

Sounds like a little therapy.  Allow your self to dream.

What is the first step towards that dream your going to take?

Mark

 

[shortdawg]

As I sit here tonight looking through the latest shorthorn country, I came across the Cates Farm catalog. There is another thread but this is my thoughts. It brings back flashbacks of so many things to me. 13 years ago this month I moved into this farm a began my farming journey. I knew nothing. I mean nothing. A retired vo ag teacher gave me a shorthorn country. I had never heard of them. Those early days for me were wonderful. I looked at the cates sale catalog so much I wore them out. I dreamed someday I'd go there and get me some of those beautiful calves and cows. I made a trip with a buddy of mine there. Let's call him "miller high life". I loved the place. Got to see everything I wanted. It blew my mind. I eventually got a trump/ rodeo drive/ leader 13th/ maid of promise bull. I loved that bull. I was so proud. When I read the letter the girl wrote I just smiled. What a amazing feat these folks have done. They are responsible for the foundation of our breed now. It's them by a mile. You may not use their genetics. You may not like their genetics but by God you better respect what they have done. They literally put the breed back on the map.


Now the question I think about more then I care to admit. Where do we go from here with what they have done? I think it can grow by leaps and bounds from here. They have a ideal operation to model after to produce quality cattle no matter what blood lines you use. I think they have some cows I now want to fix a bit. They also have some cows that I would love to give a shot in my operation style and breed to bulls I think work. Who says we can't combine some outside genetics from other breeders and turn this nice snowball into a big ol monster rolling down the mountain.

Ok. I just wanted to share what's on my mind tonight. I'm good now.

Well said !

 

[OH Breeder]

TG very insightful and well written. I agree. You have to respect what those folks have done even if you choose not to use their genetics. g

 

[OKshorthorn]

Well put sir, well put. It's all just different strokes for different folks. Thats whats great about this industry, noone is forcing you to use, buy, breed any particular genetic line, or breed for that matter, and I for one don't think there is a wrong way to go about it.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Well SOS from ME: I would agree with you,and I CERTAINLY agree that those genetics need to be tested with commercially oriented genetics-AS WELL:Sullivan has pretty well astounded the entire industry with the sheer volume of quality cattle he produces:after a very short time from the start of his endeavor.-In terms of a short term marketing-breeding-show program-I dont think anyone will ever come close: to what Sullivan has done. I dont think alot of his-or Cates cattle will ever be anything but show animals-due to obvious reasons-AND THE PRICE OF ADMISSION. That said-Sullivan has at least begun to address (somewhat) the easier calving red-DMCC LTD EDITION deal-so popular with Hartman -B-good-and in a strictly commercial  non show sense-ME.Since almost everything these two orgs. produce (in the higher quality end)of bulls is syndicated etc-occaisionally there is a trickle down effect where a Cates or sale bull of Sullivans sale might have semen offered to anyone who would use it. But for the most part-that aint happening.I think Jungels realize this-and are letting some of those "new" Ltd Edition genetics from Red Reward etc. (LTD EDITIONS been around A VERY LONG TIME) out to the public. I think in order for them to continue in an exremely capital intensive business at the very pinnacle of Shorthorn orgs,(which they are)-Sillivan and Cates really CANT LET THE CATTLE GET UGLY MIXING THEM WITH GENETICS THAT WONT WIN SHOWS. I am NOT;knocking them for this at all:AND: eventually-the genetics do make thier way to regular breeders etc . down the line.Id sure like to see cool Shorthorns that catch everyones eye in the ring utilized in a functional environment like Trevor Gray etc.-but with the currant trends in the breed-it just keeps moving into a tighter concentric circle.Im gonna really try and get out and look though-when Sullivan steps up the x-breeding program. O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Sounds like a little therapy.  Allow your self to dream.

What is the first step towards that dream your going to take?

Mark

That's a good question! My first step was getting 329. Super easy keeping, easy calving , just good solid bull. Not the bone or hair or zipper front end but a good place to start. I think it's possible to eventually combine enough show cattle phenotype with real world cattle and get a good middle of the road product that can reach lots of customers. I would love to see some of the cates genetics bred to some bulls of my choosing.

 

[OKshorthorn]

That's a good question! My first step was getting 329. Super easy keeping, easy calving , just good solid bull. Not the bone or hair or zipper front end but a good place to start. I think it's possible to eventually combine enough show cattle phenotype with real world cattle and get a good middle of the road product that can reach lots of customers. I would love to see some of the cates genetics bred to some bulls of my choosing.
[/quote]

This is where we are at as well. We have bought some embryos and cattle from all over, and we have AI's most of our cows/heifers with a variety of bulls. We feel like the genetics of some of these cows that we have bought as well as our own herd, combined with the bull's we have chose will give us a product in the long run that is somewhere in the middle of the road. Whether they have success in the show ring or not, I want for someone to be able to go out and look at our cows and say "wow, I would love to have a bunch of cows like that."

 

[shortdawg]

Why don't you all team up and buy a flush out of one of the Cates Donors. That would be a good way to mix the genetics you all want to mix. Just a thought ......

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Well SOS from ME: I would agree with you,and I CERTAINLY agree that those genetics need to be tested with commercially oriented genetics-AS WELL:Sullivan has pretty well astounded the entire industry with the sheer volume of quality cattle he produces:after a very short time from the start of his endeavor.-In terms of a short term marketing-breeding-show program-I dont think anyone will ever come close: to what Sullivan has done. I dont think alot of his-or Cates cattle will ever be anything but show animals-due to obvious reasons-AND THE PRICE OF ADMISSION. That said-Sullivan has at least begun to address (somewhat) the easier calving red-DMCC LTD EDITION deal-so popular with Hartman -B-good-and in a strictly commercial  non show sense-ME.Since almost everything these two orgs. produce (in the higher quality end)of bulls is syndicated etc-occaisionally there is a trickle down effect where a Cates or sale bull of Sullivans sale might have semen offered to anyone who would use it. But for the most part-that aint happening.I think Jungels realize this-and are letting some of those "new" Ltd Edition genetics from Red Reward etc. (LTD EDITIONS been around A VERY LONG TIME) out to the public. I think in order for them to continue in an exremely capital intensive business at the very pinnacle of Shorthorn orgs,(which they are)-Sillivan and Cates really CANT LET THE CATTLE GET UGLY MIXING THEM WITH GENETICS THAT WONT WIN SHOWS. I am NOT;knocking them for this at all:AND: eventually-the genetics do make thier way to regular breeders etc . down the line.Id sure like to see cool Shorthorns that catch everyones eye in the ring utilized in a functional environment like Trevor Gray etc.-but with the currant trends in the breed-it just keeps moving into a tighter concentric circle.Im gonna really try and get out and look though-when Sullivan steps up the x-breeding program. O0

Mark, very well said. I have had to read it a few times and sit and ponder your thoughts. I don't think one can do this over a generation or two. I think it could take 5 or 10 years to get it right and have those cattle breed on with consistency. I think a keen eye and a ruthless culling are critical. I see lots of calves out captain obvious that I think could be good pieces to start. Some of the older western bulls you know a ton about can be used to. I'll never have the cash or the want to buy one of there high dollar deals so I can see why you and lots of other folks get annoyed with the whole syndicate deal. I have always said no bull I breed will ever be a syndicate only deal. Time will tell if this holds true.

Shortdawg, maybe next year but I'm still digging my way out of a hole but that's a good idea. I sure like Starbucks dam. I'd like to give her more rib and downsize her head some but she is a good rip.

 

[cpubarn]

Shortdawg, maybe next year but I'm still digging my way out of a hole but that's a good idea. I sure like Starbucks dam. I'd like to give her more rib and downsize her head some but she is a good rip.

I'mthinking your giving up way too fast.  I don't want to spend money you don't have, any Cates genetics you could buy 5 sraws of?  If so what would you pick?  Excluding those that are syndicated.....

 

[linnettejane]

(clapping)

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Shortdawg, maybe next year but I'm still digging my way out of a hole but that's a good idea. I sure like Starbucks dam. I'd like to give her more rib and downsize her head some but she is a good rip.

I'mthinking your giving up way too fast.  I don't want to spend money you don't have, any Cates genetics you could buy 5 sraws of?  If so what would you pick?  Excluding those that are syndicated....

I'm not one to give up. Just know now isn't the right time for me. I got a plan tho. So far it's gone as good as I could have hoped. I'm being patient. Honestly I have no idea what bulls are synd and which aren't. If I'd pick one off the top of my head I'd say the CF Starbucks bull is pretty good. I never cared for his promo pic (sorry josh). But I saw some mature pics of him and I couldn't really tell the difference between him and Complete. Those two couldn't be any more unrelated. A lot of the trump bred cattle keep growing a little to long for me. But Starbucks seems to have matured into a moderate hog. That's why I liked his dam. And come to think of it I bet I can get semen on him to!

 

[JTM]

Shortdawg, maybe next year but I'm still digging my way out of a hole but that's a good idea. I sure like Starbucks dam. I'd like to give her more rib and downsize her head some but she is a good rip.

I'mthinking your giving up way too fast.  I don't want to spend money you don't have, any Cates genetics you could buy 5 sraws of?  If so what would you pick?  Excluding those that are syndicated....

I'm not one to give up. Just know now isn't the right time for me. I got a plan tho. So far it's gone as good as I could have hoped. I'm being patient. Honestly I have no idea what bulls are synd and which aren't. If I'd pick one off the top of my head I'd say the CF Starbucks bull is pretty good. I never cared for his promo pic (sorry josh). But I saw some mature pics of him and I couldn't really tell the difference between him and Complete. Those two couldn't be any more unrelated. A lot of the trump bred cattle keep growing a little to long for me. But Starbucks seems to have matured into a moderate hog. That's why I liked his dam. And come to think of it I bet I can get semen on him to!

Very good post TG. I echo a lot of the stuff you said and also that the Cates are really good people too.  I think I am a step ahead of you on something, haha. Below are pics of a breeding I tried this year. We will see! Lot 1 Cates heifer x Complete.  ;D

 

[RyanChandler]

Well, let's see the mature pic then...  (pop)


In response to the topic, I don't think there is any point in crossing the trump bred show cattle with the commercially oriented lines.  Just seems to me that you'd get a 'dual purpose' type that's not very good in either arena.  Maybe if you were to treat those offspring (how i'd use Complete) as a breeding piece(7/8) to create a final product(15/16) then youd be on to something - the infusion of the showier cattle genetics being used to add skeletal design/structure to rid many commercial lines of the droopy headed, poor topline type characteristics.  From those 'f1s' so to say, I'd keep going back with beefier bulls to get the functionality back in them.  The key here is to select against those coon footed cowier types and select those that have added beefiness w/o giving up form. 

Or maybe form really does follow function and beef cattle look they way the do as a result of their functionality. "This is what functional characteristics look like"  As a result of having functional characteristics, the animal evolves into a certain form?? At least I think so.

Why can't show cattle perform on pasture?? Because the characteristics they've been selected for, or better yet their form, isn't conducive to real world performance.

*Is a heifer's udder quality more influenced by her dam or by her sire?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Shortdawg, maybe next year but I'm still digging my way out of a hole but that's a good idea. I sure like Starbucks dam. I'd like to give her more rib and downsize her head some but she is a good rip.

I'mthinking your giving up way too fast.  I don't want to spend money you don't have, any Cates genetics you could buy 5 sraws of?  If so what would you pick?  Excluding those that are syndicated....

I'm not one to give up. Just know now isn't the right time for me. I got a plan tho. So far it's gone as good as I could have hoped. I'm being patient. Honestly I have no idea what bulls are synd and which aren't. If I'd pick one off the top of my head I'd say the CF Starbucks bull is pretty good. I never cared for his promo pic (sorry josh). But I saw some mature pics of him and I couldn't really tell the difference between him and Complete. Those two couldn't be any more unrelated. A lot of the trump bred cattle keep growing a little to long for me. But Starbucks seems to have matured into a moderate hog. That's why I liked his dam. And come to think of it I bet I can get semen on him to!

Very good post TG. I echo a lot of the stuff you said and also that the Cates are really good people too.  I think I am a step ahead of you on something, haha. Below are pics of a breeding I tried this year. We will see! Lot 1 Cates heifer x Complete.  ;D

<beer> (clapping) (clapping)

 

[JTM]

Well, let's see the mature pic then...  (pop)
In response to the topic, I don't think there is any point in crossing the trump bred show cattle with the commercially oriented lines.   Just seems to me that you'd get a 'dual purpose' type that's not very good in either arena.  Maybe if you were to treat those offspring (how i'd use Complete) as a breeding piece(7/8) to create a final product(15/16) then youd be on to something - the infusion of the showier cattle genetics being used to add skeletal design/structure to rid many commercial lines of the droopy headed, poor topline type characteristics.  From those 'f1s' so to say, I'd keep going back with beefier bulls to get the functionality back in them.  The key here is to select against those coon footed cowier types and select those that have added beefiness w/o giving up form. 
Or maybe form really does follow function and beef cattle look they way the do as a result of their functionality. "This is what functional characteristics look like"   As a result of having functional characteristics, the animal evolves into a certain form?? At least I think so.
Why can't show cattle perform on pasture?? Because the characteristics they've been selected for, or better yet their form, isn't conducive to real world performance.
*Is a heifer's udder quality more influenced by her dam or by her sire?

XBar, I agree with pretty much everything you said there. Although I think there is a point to breeding the show cattle to performance oriented. You can use it to change your program in order to improve performance. What I am doing with my show oriented purebreds is trying to get functional cattle that also have a show ring acceptable look. I think you are correct in saying that with functionality comes a certain look but for the love of showing and competition I am willing to try this kind of breeding in order to attempt to make a show aniimal that has a lot more chance of performing well in multiple areas. There are very few show animals that possess really good characteristics in all areas. So far Star Bucks has done that more than any other show oriented bull I have used. The only thing I have yet to see is his daughters udders when they calve. This spring will show that. I think the common answer to your question is that the sire stamps more of the udder than the dam but I would tend to say it's 50/50 and a toss up unless both are bad or both are good. I believe traits can come from multiple generations and you don't know when or if they will pop up.

 

[RyanChandler]

Very nice bull - I like mature pics so much better.

 

[OH Breeder]

Really like the mature pics of starbucks. what lines has he seem to have clicked with better?

 

[Telos]

The Cate's program was built with a long term mission. A bunch of culling was done to get there. This is all about genetics and experimentation.  Those Trump's and Rodeo Drive's were created using primarily Cunia influence x Shorthorn genetics. My thoughts are to go back and find a Maine bull that has a different genetic profile. The line bred Purebreds are probably too common genetically but some of those Fullblood Maine's can give you some outcross potential. Improving cattle is infinite and a long term mission. It's not over with yet. Have fun and good luck.