NAILE Open Shorthorn Show - a couple interesting facts.

[sjcattleco]

The sad thing is when it comes to the shorthorn breed is that the whole "fix" is soooooo simple..

Having a breed or  type  of cattle that are strickly for show is just insane!! The steer deal is bad enough... Folks pure  bred cattle are not for show... We should show them to show them off and display what we have created  but to raise a  seedstock  meat animal that people will admit are not practical or functional  is really just the dumbest thing ever! If  your goal is to raise animals and win ribbons get into horses or dogs or even cats. but not cattle!

So the solution is Change what is winning...I know it will cost some firms a schidt tonne of money but ohhh well.
  It is 2011 not 1985.  we do not need  1600lb 16 month old heifers  infact I don't want any female that weighs 1600#  We do not need judges who  fault / discount heifers for being too conventional or too commercial..We do not need judges that pick nonmasculine bulls that are too big and are out of balance. We need to educate and inform people that there are other options and why they are superior.  Since this is a purebred show we are not in the pounds business we are in the "package" business. Purebred cattle are supposed to be a package that people use to raise other cattle that are a profitable package. this day in age its about efficiency and low cost. not production and performance without  any reguard as to what the costs are!!!

I had a " breeder" call me one day about bringing their dog from Missouri to Ohio to get her bred. after 5 minutes of discussing those details she proceded to try to sell me cattle... she went into this big speil about this "SHOW" bull that had raised had about 12 million points and won this fair and that fair... blah blah blah.. She then went on about all this performance and how the bull was a frame 7 and all this crap and then went on about how they were buying all this silage to feed their cows.... The whole time I am thinking... are you kidding me we are not even on the same planet... I started asking her different questions and finally got out of her that ALL of this was to win some ribbons. She did not care what won the ribbons just as long as they won some....

So there's the deal change what wins.... pick functional moderate non extreme non freaky  haired up cattle.  Let people win ribbons with commercial type cattle and we will all be happy. We will all make out instead of cutting each others throat!!! 

 

[aandtcattle]

The sad thing is when it comes to the shorthorn breed is that the whole "fix" is soooooo simple..

Having a breed or  type  of cattle that are strickly for show is just insane!! The steer deal is bad enough... Folks pure  bred cattle are not for show... We should show them to show them off and display what we have created  but to raise a  seedstock  meat animal that people will admit are not practical or functional  is really just the dumbest thing ever! If  your goal is to raise animals and win ribbons get into horses or dogs or even cats. but not cattle!

So the solution is Change what is winning...I know it will cost some firms a schidt tonne of money but ohhh well.
  It is 2011 not 1985.  we do not need  1600lb 16 month old heifers  infact I don't want any female that weighs 1600#  We do not need judges who  fault / discount heifers for being too conventional or too commercial..We do not need judges that pick nonmasculine bulls that are too big and are out of balance. We need to educate and inform people that there are other options and why they are superior.  Since this is a purebred show we are not in the pounds business we are in the "package" business. Purebred cattle are supposed to be a package that people use to raise other cattle that are a profitable package. this day in age its about efficiency and low cost. not production and performance without  any reguard as to what the costs are!!!

I had a " breeder" call me one day about bringing their dog from Missouri to Ohio to get her bred. after 5 minutes of discussing those details she proceded to try to sell me cattle... she went into this big speil about this "SHOW" bull that had raised had about 12 million points and won this fair and that fair... blah blah blah.. She then went on about all this performance and how the bull was a frame 7 and all this crap and then went on about how they were buying all this silage to feed their cows.... The whole time I am thinking... are you kidding me we are not even on the same planet... I started asking her different questions and finally got out of her that ALL of this was to win some ribbons. She did not care what won the ribbons just as long as they won some....

So there's the deal change what wins.... pick functional moderate non extreme non freaky  haired up cattle.  Let people win ribbons with commercial type cattle and we will all be happy. We will all make out instead of cutting each others throat!!! 

I agree 100%!  This really is what needs to happen, but I dont think it ever will.  There are far too many big name boys that would throw a fit and go broke if their humongous silage eatin cattle were not the "in thing" anymore and quite frankly, with collegiate judging being coached the way it is todaY, WE WILL HAVE A STEADY FLOW OF SHOW ORIENTED JUDGES TO PICK FROM FOR YEARS TO COME.  i want to see Joe Blow Rancher judge louisville or denver sometime.  I think it would be awesome!  The closest the shorthorn breed has had was Harold Bertz a few years ago was associate judge in Louisville.

Im not making out with anybody even if things do change. LOL
<cowboy>

 

[sjcattleco]

LOL  you can "make out" with Tara!

 

[Aussie]

I'm with Nate53 Predicable accurate numbers on bulls. I am not a great numbers man but many commercial guys are especially farm managers out of collage ( easier to breed with numbers than breed cattle) . To use a proven # bull or a young  bull with proven # breeding behind him for low birth/ good carcase/ high milk what ever Angus can offer that data (HD 50 anyone).  That's why I breed them not because I am in love with the breed as such because they sell and the Angus machine helps to sell them.
On bull prices. Angus bulls here over all this years sales in Australia would be pushing $5000 ave. which would be 95% commercial up nearly $1000 on last year and $1000 up on any other breed.


Im not making out with anybody even if things do change. LOL
A&T you are a good bloke but now you have set some boundries I will sleep easier. (lol)

 

[r.n.reed]

I noticed some of my compatriots poking fun of silage feeders.Well,I guess I am out of the club.60.00 a ton in the bag,200.00 plus per ton hay that you waste a third of,and no grazing options,stuble etc.It was simple math for me.I would also add that whether you raise your own hay or buy it the cost is the same.
Another plus for the Shorthorn,I have thrown about every feeding scenario imaginable at my herd the last few years in an effort to keep costs in line,somtimes switching monthly.  Their ability to adapt with little impact on production has amazed me.

 

[nate53]

I noticed some of my compatriots poking fun of silage feeders.Well,I guess I am out of the club.60.00 a ton in the bag,200.00 plus per ton hay that you waste a third of,and no grazing options,stuble etc.It was simple math for me.I would also add that whether you raise your own hay or buy it the cost is the same.
Another plus for the Shorthorn,I have thrown about every feeding scenario imaginable at my herd the last few years in an effort to keep costs in line,somtimes switching monthly.  Their ability to adapt with little impact on production has amazed me.

Silage has a bad rap with the people that have a lot of grass, hay, more acres, etc.  Just like anything else it can be highly variable as far nutrients but is totally manageable.  Personally I think it is the best feed there is (especially in the winter), and more years than not we have cut some to feed.  It is a good energy source and fed properly it can really cut down on hay use, furthermore the cows and their calves  love it and do amazing on it.  We didn't cut any this year- but are getting some wet ddg's from a ethanol plant and putting it in a tub mixer and mixing with straw and cornstalk bales (this is saving us 2 bales of hay a day), the cows like it just not as well as silage.  We will be cutting more in the future for sure!  Guess it all comes down to where you are at, what you have available to you and your cattle.  Also economical.  IMO

There is a club??????? ;D

 

[r.n.reed]

Nate,I am totally shocked that you have not been contacted by the membership committee! ;D

 

[JTM]

The sad thing is when it comes to the shorthorn breed is that the whole "fix" is soooooo simple..

Having a breed or  type  of cattle that are strickly for show is just insane!! The steer deal is bad enough... Folks pure  bred cattle are not for show... We should show them to show them off and display what we have created  but to raise a  seedstock  meat animal that people will admit are not practical or functional  is really just the dumbest thing ever! If  your goal is to raise animals and win ribbons get into horses or dogs or even cats. but not cattle!

So the solution is Change what is winning...I know it will cost some firms a schidt tonne of money but ohhh well.
  It is 2011 not 1985.  we do not need  1600lb 16 month old heifers  infact I don't want any female that weighs 1600#  We do not need judges who  fault / discount heifers for being too conventional or too commercial..We do not need judges that pick nonmasculine bulls that are too big and are out of balance. We need to educate and inform people that there are other options and why they are superior.  Since this is a purebred show we are not in the pounds business we are in the "package" business. Purebred cattle are supposed to be a package that people use to raise other cattle that are a profitable package. this day in age its about efficiency and low cost. not production and performance without  any reguard as to what the costs are!!!

I had a " breeder" call me one day about bringing their dog from Missouri to Ohio to get her bred. after 5 minutes of discussing those details she proceded to try to sell me cattle... she went into this big speil about this "SHOW" bull that had raised had about 12 million points and won this fair and that fair... blah blah blah.. She then went on about all this performance and how the bull was a frame 7 and all this crap and then went on about how they were buying all this silage to feed their cows.... The whole time I am thinking... are you kidding me we are not even on the same planet... I started asking her different questions and finally got out of her that ALL of this was to win some ribbons. She did not care what won the ribbons just as long as they won some....

So there's the deal change what wins.... pick functional moderate non extreme non freaky  haired up cattle.  Let people win ribbons with commercial type cattle and we will all be happy. We will all make out instead of cutting each others throat!!! 

I agree 100%!  This really is what needs to happen, but I dont think it ever will.  There are far too many big name boys that would throw a fit and go broke if their humongous silage eatin cattle were not the "in thing" anymore and quite frankly, with collegiate judging being coached the way it is todaY, WE WILL HAVE A STEADY FLOW OF SHOW ORIENTED JUDGES TO PICK FROM FOR YEARS TO COME.  i want to see Joe Blow Rancher judge louisville or denver sometime.  I think it would be awesome!  The closest the shorthorn breed has had was Harold Bertz a few years ago was associate judge in Louisville.

Im not making out with anybody even if things do change. LOL
<cowboy>

Agree with you guys. I was completely ignorant to cattle when my wife got me started about ten years ago. I thought that certainly these show cattle already perform in all ways and have been culled according to performance traits and now all the judges have to do is judge according to soundness and phenotype. Haha! Boy was I wrong. With this said, I just don't see how this issue will ever improve without a huge movement of honesty and sincere concern for the performance of the breed. In a lot of situations during a show, the judge must make a decision based on fleshing ability, frame size, soundness, and phenotype but has no useful data to tell which heifers or bulls will actually perform in the real world. Thats where the honesty and sincere concern comes into play when breeders choose to cull that cow who has the 120 lb dead calf instead of flushing her and selling her sons and daughters all over the country... Without this, I'm afraid we will have several different roads to go down and types of Shorthorn cattle.

 

[oakview]

This thread is a testimonial to the diversity in the cattle industry.  So many different paths to follow, so many different ideas, so many STRONG opinions.  I am happy, actually thankful, each of you thinks you're right.  One of my favorite performers said it best, "The driving is easy in the middle of the road, but you meet a lot of intersting people in the ditch."  Again, do what you want to do, just try to avoid belittling the other guy. 

 

[r.n.reed]

Respect for what someone else is doing successfuly and honestly should be a standard.I contend that there is no middle of the road for the individual operation.If your program is not totaly focused 100%  on your targeted cutomers needs you will not succeed.The image of the breed needs to come to the middle of the road.For too long we have been running down one ditch.

 

[oakview]

If everyone drove in the middle of the road, did the same thing, change would be nearly impossible or at least extremely slow.  When we were just starting with Shorthorns, nearly 50 years ago, how many people laughed and pointed their fingers at Lewis Thieman, Bert Hanson, or Frank Haumont because they were driving in the ditch.  All three had their day, didn't they.  Our breed is better for it, too.  As I've said before, if you don't like Trump, then don't use him.  If you don't like Captain Obvious, then don't use him.  If you don't like Columbus, then don't use him.  Just remember, though, the breed, any breed for that matter, greatly needs diversity in the cattle and their breeders.  What goes around comes around and it's an absolute necessity to have options available when we need them.

 

[JTM]

Respect for what someone else is doing successfuly and honestly should be a standard.I contend that there is no middle of the road for the individual operation.If your program is not totaly focused 100%  on your targeted cutomers needs you will not succeed.The image of the breed needs to come to the middle of the road.For too long we have been running down one ditch.

Thats why I have two vehicles, one in one ditch and the other in the other. One vehicle I want to keep in the ditch and the other I am going to attempt to bring to the middle of the road. Let's just hope I don't roll the thing over in the process...  ;D

 

[aandtcattle]

I noticed some of my compatriots poking fun of silage feeders.Well,I guess I am out of the club.60.00 a ton in the bag,200.00 plus per ton hay that you waste a third of,and no grazing options,stuble etc.It was simple math for me.I would also add that whether you raise your own hay or buy it the cost is the same.
Another plus for the Shorthorn,I have thrown about every feeding scenario imaginable at my herd the last few years in an effort to keep costs in line,somtimes switching monthly.  Their ability to adapt with little impact on production has amazed me.

(lol)Gary, the difference is, your cows are not huge, they do not require silage.  It does make sense to feed silage if it is indeed cheaper.  However I know for a fact that on a dry matter basis, the cost comparison on silage vs. hay is a lot closer than what youre publishing.  I also disagree about the cost of hay being the same wether you buy it or raise it.  I figure it costs me around 45-55 dollars per acre that I hay (not counting my time).  Even if I only get 1.5 tons/acre, its much cheaper than buying hay.  Granted I run old, cheap equipment and my entire fleet of haying equipment wouldnt equal the value of a new baler. <beer>

 

[r.n.reed]

Don't forget your oppurtunity costs Aaron,I see a lot of Nebraska and Kansas trucks heading east loaded with hay!

 

[garybob]

If everyone drove in the middle of the road, did the same thing, change would be nearly impossible or at least extremely slow.  When we were just starting with Shorthorns, nearly 50 years ago, how many people laughed and pointed their fingers at Lewis Thieman, Bert Hanson, or Frank Haumont because they were driving in the ditch.  All three had their day, didn't they.  Our breed is better for it, too.  As I've said before, if you don't like Trump, then don't use him.  If you don't like Captain Obvious, then don't use him.  If you don't like Columbus, then don't use him.  Just remember, though, the breed, any breed for that matter, greatly needs diversity in the cattle and their breeders.  What goes around comes around and it's an absolute necessity to have options available when we need them.

Is constantly using TrumpXRodeo Drive cattle attributed to diversity? Gimme a break!

GB

 

[garybob]

I noticed some of my compatriots poking fun of silage feeders.Well,I guess I am out of the club.60.00 a ton in the bag,200.00 plus per ton hay that you waste a third of,and no grazing options,stuble etc.It was simple math for me.I would also add that whether you raise your own hay or buy it the cost is the same.
Another plus for the Shorthorn,I have thrown about every feeding scenario imaginable at my herd the last few years in an effort to keep costs in line,somtimes switching monthly.  Their ability to adapt with little impact on production has amazed me.

In a "landlocked" situation such as yours, Silage would be your only solution for winter roughage.

GB

 

[jaimiediamond]

Is constantly using TrumpXRodeo Drive cattle attributed to diversity? Gimme a break!

GB

I have come up with a number of herds off the top of my head that offer some genetic diversity, none of which have Trump or Rodeo Drive. I think what we are forgetting is the most important thing for a producer of a product (Shorthorn cattle) is that there is a market (show ring, seedstock program, feedlot ect.) for the product to be sold into.  As long as the show ring market demands the type of Trump decended animals those are the animals that will be winning! Which means the producers aiming for showstock will use those lines. The herds that are commercially orientated for their region may have a different type from the herds that were produced with a commercial man in mind in another region, this brings a lot more diversity then then it at first appears.  I think that the most interesting thing about the show world is that fads change, the halter ideal from 1940 didn't fit with the halter ideal of 1970, and 1970 doesn't fit in with what has become preferable in the 2000s.

 

[Aussie]

(lol)Gary, the difference is, your cows are not huge, they do not require silage.  It does make sense to feed silage if it is indeed cheaper.  However I know for a fact that on a dry matter basis, the cost comparison on silage vs. hay is a lot closer than what youre publishing.  I also disagree about the cost of hay being the same wether you buy it or raise it.  I figure it costs me around 45-55 dollars per acre that I hay (not counting my time).  Even if I only get 1.5 tons/acre, its much cheaper than buying hay.  Granted I run old, cheap equipment and my entire fleet of haying equipment wouldnt equal the value of a new baler. <beer>

Silage here is heavily used option it utilized excess grass in the spring flush and is often used in the dry later summer early fall. I would agree it is to expensive to feed to cows but as all our cattle are on a grass based fattening regime we feed it to young cattle to finish them.

 

[JoeBnTN]

While it’s unfortunate that the discussion of Louisville has migrated to a debate on the commercial viability of Shorthorns, the discussion has for the most part been healthy.  What is missing in the debate on whether Shorthorns have a place in the commercial sector is the basic question of numbers and volume. 

One of the major factors influencing the demand for Shorthorns in commercial herds is the lack of availability of large number of bulls with similar genetic backgrounds.  Today’s larger commercial breeders want to buy bulls in sire groups so that they can get a number of ½ - ¾ brothers to help assure predictability.  It’s not uncommon at leading bull sales to see one buyer purchase 5-10 bulls all bred alike.  With the exception of perhaps Waukaru and maybe 1-2 others, there are no sources for bull numbers in this type.

To underscore the problem, all one has to do is look at the herds in the Century club (those that register more than 100 head annually) and you find 15-20 herds annually in that group, with only 2-3 over 200 head.  By contrast, the Angus breed has more than 500 members register more than 100 head and a significant number of herds have 500-1000 registrations.  The numbers are simply not there to attract interest by the larger cow herds.

For the Shorthorn breed to make any headway into the commercial sector it needs to find a way to address this problem.  With that’s through collaborative marketing by like-minded breeders or establishing preferred relationships between seed stock suppliers and their commercial partners (i.e. breeding herd bulls under contract for a single large producer), inroads will have to be made in order to capture market share.

Are the genetics there – of course.  There are commercially viable genetics that can produce just as effectively as the show ring genetics.  Each produces a valuable but unique product – it’s just easier for the typical small Shorthorn herd to build a marketing program around a few higher valued heifer calves, than it is to develop a bull market when there are only 3-5 bulls per year to sell.

 

[oakview]

I don't think I said, or even implied, that constantly using Trump X Rodeo Drive would be diversity.  I am thankful that everyone doesn't use Trump X Rodeo Drive.  I am thankful that everyone doesn't use Leader 21st.  I am thankful that everyone doesn't use Captain Obvious or Wolf Willow Major Leroy.  I am mostly thankful that I can use what I please without even the remotest concern about what you think.  I have experienced the Bapton Constructor craze, the Leader 21 era, the Clark/Columbus fad, the Dividend/Irish period, and now the days of Trump.  Each has had their time and place.  I've used some of each and enjoyed every minute of it.  Still, I am very grateful that there are and were many other genetic options out there.  To paraphrase, I may not agree with your taste in cattle, but I'll stick up for your right to raise them.  By the way, we fed silage to our 900 pound belt buckle cattle of the 60's and our 60 inch tall bulls of the late 70's.  It's what we had, so we fed it.  I enjoyed every bit of that, too.