Yes our cattle get more attention then ones running a thousand acre ranch, and yes we did supplement cows, and the bull through the drought last year...... But to compare Limousin disposition to the limi dispositions of the eighties would be like looking at a picture of Sugar Ray to make a judgement on modern club calves! Running creek Limousin, check them out online, they calve in groups of 500... They work commercially....
New Angus Ads (no need for crossbreeding)
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comercialfarmer
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It all boils down to marketing. McDonald's isn't going to advertise for Wendy's and tell you that you could get a salad at Wendy's that is better for you than the hamburger at McDonald's. Or Coke for Pepsi. It is all just a new campaign to try to capture a larger market. Coke doesn't care what Pepsi thinks of them. Since herefords aren't paying the bills for angus execs, I doubt they will back down.
There probably is some truth in it, you can use some growthy bulls and get more growth. As was previously stated, there is probably something in the woodpile of some of these bulls that don't look or act like traditional Angus. So you can probably get whatever you need with an "Angus" bull. However, you will still give up some hybrid vigor that other breeds will give you and that is free money being thrown out the window.
I agree in places, and others I don't. One thing we have to be careful of, is looking at a current problem in the future but only using current solutions to address the future problem. If we had farming techniques of the 1900's today, all of our belly buttons would be rubbing on our back bones. Innovations occur and techniques change. Food production grows. Currently, here in the US, there is room to cut grain supply. Take away regulated ethanol production, and watch the corn price fall. Land would come back out of production. Cattle would be cheaper to feed.
Cattle should be pushed to the marginal areas, just makes economic sense.
An issue that you brought up, is that as you go to an all grass diet, you can't run as many head in the national system, so production will drop. Therefor, we agree that the feedlot system provides the world with more beef. If beef is in demand, a calf that converts feed to meat is still needed.
Not saying that grass production is wrong for you. And there are many here that make it work as well. But it won't provide as much total beef as a feed lot system will.
There probably is some truth in it, you can use some growthy bulls and get more growth. As was previously stated, there is probably something in the woodpile of some of these bulls that don't look or act like traditional Angus. So you can probably get whatever you need with an "Angus" bull. However, you will still give up some hybrid vigor that other breeds will give you and that is free money being thrown out the window.
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
I agree in places, and others I don't. One thing we have to be careful of, is looking at a current problem in the future but only using current solutions to address the future problem. If we had farming techniques of the 1900's today, all of our belly buttons would be rubbing on our back bones. Innovations occur and techniques change. Food production grows. Currently, here in the US, there is room to cut grain supply. Take away regulated ethanol production, and watch the corn price fall. Land would come back out of production. Cattle would be cheaper to feed.
Cattle should be pushed to the marginal areas, just makes economic sense.
An issue that you brought up, is that as you go to an all grass diet, you can't run as many head in the national system, so production will drop. Therefor, we agree that the feedlot system provides the world with more beef. If beef is in demand, a calf that converts feed to meat is still needed.
Not saying that grass production is wrong for you. And there are many here that make it work as well. But it won't provide as much total beef as a feed lot system will.
Telos
Well-known member
We often times forget how much energy it takes to get a calf ready for the Grocery Store case. Approx. 386 gallons of petroleum by the time you plant, fertilize, harvest, slaughter etc. for one single case ready carcass. It is now coming down to low input /high output restrictions that have to be strictly applied.
I remember when some college professors were telling students that one day our breeds of cattle would do exactly want they were genetically designed to do and there would be no need for hybrid vigor. This may have some truth to it, but I still think that is a very long ways off.
We in the USA like to bragg how productive we are. But often time forget how much energy resourses it takes to achieve this production. It comes with a big price.
There will come a time wehen we will need to rethink how the beef industry in this Country can flourish again. It's going to come down with how we produce and eat beef again. Maybe more in line with Italian and European techniques.
I remember when some college professors were telling students that one day our breeds of cattle would do exactly want they were genetically designed to do and there would be no need for hybrid vigor. This may have some truth to it, but I still think that is a very long ways off.
We in the USA like to bragg how productive we are. But often time forget how much energy resourses it takes to achieve this production. It comes with a big price.
There will come a time wehen we will need to rethink how the beef industry in this Country can flourish again. It's going to come down with how we produce and eat beef again. Maybe more in line with Italian and European techniques.
I have read this thread with great interest. A few points I would like to make:
1. The angus breed is the king of marketing. It doesn't make them the best cattle breed, but the best marketers in the cattle industry.
2. Black angus are losing their % when it comes to cattle breeds.
3. If what you are doing isn't working anymore, then you better try something else. They are losing their market share with their current ads, so they needed to change.
4. Angus are no longer a "pure" breed. So to say they are "better" than any other breed is wrong. In fact, to say other breeds benefited from angus and not accept the fact that angus benefited from other breeds is very untrue. At least other breeds call them a name, such as limiflex, appendix, maine angus, instead of registering them all as purebred.
5. There is a place for every breed somewhere. Maybe not in your pasture or my pasture, but I doubt my (or your) cattle would survive in Africa or southern Texas. On the other hand, southern cattle do not do well where I live. Hair doesn't survive where I live, and yet, my cattle would probably freeze in a cooler!
6. It is great to see such breed loyalty, but remember, we all are CATTLE producers.
7. Breeds have changed over the last 50 years. Some more than others. Limi's have calmed down, and in my opinion, angus have ruined their feet and leg structure. Simmi's have lost their color and Char's have gotten some maternal ability. ALL breeds have improved their carcass merit since DNA and ultrasound have made it possible to improve the "unseen".
8. If angus is such a "superior" breed, CAB would not include ANY breed nor would they need to. In fact, over the history of CAB the requirements of CAB were REDUCED to try and include more angus.
9. What would REALLY be fun is if other breeds promoted and became marketing geniuses like the angus! Just think of all the fun marketing campaigns!!
10. If we all agreed on the "perfect" cow or "perfect bull", we would all simply flush and clone the same individual, and how boring would THAT be?
So, with all those points in mind, I will keep raising my type of cattle, and you can keep producing yours. Which ever one has the biggest bank account wins!!
1. The angus breed is the king of marketing. It doesn't make them the best cattle breed, but the best marketers in the cattle industry.
2. Black angus are losing their % when it comes to cattle breeds.
3. If what you are doing isn't working anymore, then you better try something else. They are losing their market share with their current ads, so they needed to change.
4. Angus are no longer a "pure" breed. So to say they are "better" than any other breed is wrong. In fact, to say other breeds benefited from angus and not accept the fact that angus benefited from other breeds is very untrue. At least other breeds call them a name, such as limiflex, appendix, maine angus, instead of registering them all as purebred.
5. There is a place for every breed somewhere. Maybe not in your pasture or my pasture, but I doubt my (or your) cattle would survive in Africa or southern Texas. On the other hand, southern cattle do not do well where I live. Hair doesn't survive where I live, and yet, my cattle would probably freeze in a cooler!
6. It is great to see such breed loyalty, but remember, we all are CATTLE producers.
7. Breeds have changed over the last 50 years. Some more than others. Limi's have calmed down, and in my opinion, angus have ruined their feet and leg structure. Simmi's have lost their color and Char's have gotten some maternal ability. ALL breeds have improved their carcass merit since DNA and ultrasound have made it possible to improve the "unseen".
8. If angus is such a "superior" breed, CAB would not include ANY breed nor would they need to. In fact, over the history of CAB the requirements of CAB were REDUCED to try and include more angus.
9. What would REALLY be fun is if other breeds promoted and became marketing geniuses like the angus! Just think of all the fun marketing campaigns!!
10. If we all agreed on the "perfect" cow or "perfect bull", we would all simply flush and clone the same individual, and how boring would THAT be?
So, with all those points in mind, I will keep raising my type of cattle, and you can keep producing yours. Which ever one has the biggest bank account wins!!
HAB
Well-known member
ty378 said:
By today's standards, yes Angus are pure, because they are extremely high percentage Angus. The herdbook is closed now, and has been for a very long time, it was open at one time.
There have been other breeds slipped in here and there throughout the Angus breeds history, some known, some unknown, and some rumored.
Angus are pure that is crazy! I love those comments because u are silly! And a few years ago I heard all angus people say they had no defects what a joke! That's like people to say breed every first calf heifer angus another absurd joke! Trust me thirty years ago there wasn't a pud angus to breed to and IMHO still not! And no cross breeding in them that is a flat joke! Where did that white come from on there belly and udder come from wasn't there as I recall 30 years ago! Plus single trait breeding has got the breed where to no top, no muscle flat not good cattle IMHO , no bone etc!
RyanChandler
Well-known member
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
I'm against this matter to introduce other genetics for a "fast" improve, that generally bring problems few years ago.
But I'm with Shorthorn Association (UK, US and Canada) that show on pedigrees how much percentage the animals are, some times showing also the breed introgressed. This is the correct way to do the things. If you wish not use an appendix bull or cow, I know were found and were not.
Regarding ANgus be pure, maybe some ones can be like Dunlouise in Scotland and El Hinojo de Bru in Argentina, however some of their supporters who swear and believe that breed is still pure puts his hand in the fire, really? What tell about Charolais infusion on Hoffs line, about Holstein infusion on Independence line only list two.
If they are pure, OK, prove me with ADN philogentic analyses. Today we have tools to certify these arguments.
I'm as shorthorn breeder will do ADN analyse to certify some pure lines that I own, as pedigrees are flawedl as people have financial interests!
Also funny that, in general some "modern and progressive" breeders, that are the first ones to show the benefits for introduce thiese kind of genetics, generally are the ones that first offer these modern genetics.
But I'm with Shorthorn Association (UK, US and Canada) that show on pedigrees how much percentage the animals are, some times showing also the breed introgressed. This is the correct way to do the things. If you wish not use an appendix bull or cow, I know were found and were not.
Regarding ANgus be pure, maybe some ones can be like Dunlouise in Scotland and El Hinojo de Bru in Argentina, however some of their supporters who swear and believe that breed is still pure puts his hand in the fire, really? What tell about Charolais infusion on Hoffs line, about Holstein infusion on Independence line only list two.
If they are pure, OK, prove me with ADN philogentic analyses. Today we have tools to certify these arguments.
I'm as shorthorn breeder will do ADN analyse to certify some pure lines that I own, as pedigrees are flawedl as people have financial interests!
Also funny that, in general some "modern and progressive" breeders, that are the first ones to show the benefits for introduce thiese kind of genetics, generally are the ones that first offer these modern genetics.
woltemathangus
Well-known member
if you can't overcome the angus breeders, become one! hahhahahhha
Freddy
Well-known member
I wish I could laugh about all the damage,miskept records,the genetic testing bills I have to pay for because of dishonesty in the Angus breed ,you don't get much argument from the people where there are plenty of horns,scurs and white in every part of the beef animal...
temperment of the breed has also took a trmendous hit, but if people try to mend the fence some they proably will work ...I can laugh about their ad that there is no need for crossbreeding because the Angus has already got theirs in the books ... Some of you people are not old enough to remember
the little tiny Angus in the 50-60' s that were just belt high ,had no rear end's ,and got the lowest price in the sale barn....The selling point to start with was the Angus cows were very effecient ,started putting Hereford bulls ,then Charolais and gradually the other import's ....It was very common to
see 900-1000 lb. Angus cows with 600 lb. + sucking on these cows in the fall... ....AT the time those cows with Charolais X calves IMO were hard to beat ,and if costs keep rising they might see it again... When I got into the ANGUS & CHAROLAIS IMO they were the best two breeeds an
I'm still raising them...
temperment of the breed has also took a trmendous hit, but if people try to mend the fence some they proably will work ...I can laugh about their ad that there is no need for crossbreeding because the Angus has already got theirs in the books ... Some of you people are not old enough to remember
the little tiny Angus in the 50-60' s that were just belt high ,had no rear end's ,and got the lowest price in the sale barn....The selling point to start with was the Angus cows were very effecient ,started putting Hereford bulls ,then Charolais and gradually the other import's ....It was very common to
see 900-1000 lb. Angus cows with 600 lb. + sucking on these cows in the fall... ....AT the time those cows with Charolais X calves IMO were hard to beat ,and if costs keep rising they might see it again... When I got into the ANGUS & CHAROLAIS IMO they were the best two breeeds an
I'm still raising them...
RyanChandler
Well-known member
Freddy said:
Back when people were smart enough to SPECIALIZE!
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Yes, they should get some white, on udder and testicles only.
I'm also an Aberdeen Angus breeder and have lots of friends that use genetics worldwide famous....what I'm seeing? Lots of long generations fullbloods producing white belies, not a little mark, a long white mark from udder until chest like Herefords, also white stars on face. Incredible as these fullbloods are pure blakc at long time. The Red ones, not comments for these ondes!
Not one or two, but at least a dozen bulls, famous bulls, where abandoned for use due, "little marks". Not will discuss about missing hindquarters meat in some famous bloodline or the zebuin head and belly found in another ones.
I choose my bulls for AI on a basic criteria, keeping an enough of starndard as I know that almost all populations bring some "exotic pack" on background.
Could be more honest if herd book open the pedigrees for these, known, mix cattle.
I'm not telling of one or two specific herds that exported from US, Canada and Argentina pointed animals, but lots of different lines.
I raise Aberdeen Angus old type, looking for some profitability, not fashionable pedigrees.
Thanks.
I'm also an Aberdeen Angus breeder and have lots of friends that use genetics worldwide famous....what I'm seeing? Lots of long generations fullbloods producing white belies, not a little mark, a long white mark from udder until chest like Herefords, also white stars on face. Incredible as these fullbloods are pure blakc at long time. The Red ones, not comments for these ondes!
Not one or two, but at least a dozen bulls, famous bulls, where abandoned for use due, "little marks". Not will discuss about missing hindquarters meat in some famous bloodline or the zebuin head and belly found in another ones.
I choose my bulls for AI on a basic criteria, keeping an enough of starndard as I know that almost all populations bring some "exotic pack" on background.
Could be more honest if herd book open the pedigrees for these, known, mix cattle.
I'm not telling of one or two specific herds that exported from US, Canada and Argentina pointed animals, but lots of different lines.
I raise Aberdeen Angus old type, looking for some profitability, not fashionable pedigrees.
Thanks.
AmericanAngus
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2011
- Messages
- 123
Here's a segment that pushes back on some of he criticism of US feedlots and beef production. Lots of good information here for all to use:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqS4SIE1jeY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqS4SIE1jeY
When you remember back to your words in 5 years I think you will be pretty embarrassed OP. That's ok we've all been there.
I remember a few purebred registered Angus cows bearing a striking likeness to a holstein cow without spots. My Grandpa always said you give a cow with a calf space and you give an Angus cow with a calf twice as much space. EXT daughters stand out in my mind as the worst Angus I saw. These were giants wanting to jump specially built 12' high gates because you looked in their direction. This place ran about 100 registered Angus cows and everything was custom made to handle the beasts.
White on the udder has been acceptable for as long as I can remember.
Absolutes do not work very well except with death and taxes.
I remember a few purebred registered Angus cows bearing a striking likeness to a holstein cow without spots. My Grandpa always said you give a cow with a calf space and you give an Angus cow with a calf twice as much space. EXT daughters stand out in my mind as the worst Angus I saw. These were giants wanting to jump specially built 12' high gates because you looked in their direction. This place ran about 100 registered Angus cows and everything was custom made to handle the beasts.
White on the udder has been acceptable for as long as I can remember.
Absolutes do not work very well except with death and taxes.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
EXT daughters stand out as the best Angus I've seen.
nate53
Well-known member
EXT was by no means a big animal. So if your animals were giant it was not coming from him. He's just below breed average for mature height and basically breed average for mature weight. His epd's are probably more accurate than any other animal (anywhere). His progeny's docility sucks (no arguement here). His daughters would protect their calves out west from predators, good udders, raise calves on low inputs. But like you said some of his progeny were plain nuts (some at calving, some all the time). http://greengardenangus.com/ bought him as a yearling. I've got some Sydgen bred heifers and cows and they are as calm as my shorthorns.ejoe326 said:
Angus is at the top because of data - information on their product and because of the positive things people think about when they think of angus (marketing). No other breed compares, yet.
Mill Iron A
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- Jul 12, 2011
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- 516
No other breed compares to their marketing that is agreed but when we talk data I disagree. Since the red angus and simmental breeds have put their data together they now have more records than the angus association. And since both red angus and Simmental have black angus in their registry, it is now at a point where a black angus bull is more proven in the red angus database.
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